2014 July 06 Sunday
Thinking Ahead 20 Years

The US Supreme Court will be well to the left of where it is today. Will the Left then take more aggressive measures to restrict freedom of speech against wrong thinkers? Am I writing stuff that will get me in trouble 20 years hence?

Will US political divisions become deeper and much more bitter? Will the hostility become open and continuous?

The US will be far weaker compared to China. Will US leaders back down as the US Navy becomes a marginal and easily defeated force?

When American politics go further leftward will neocons and neoliberal advocates of US force for nation-building and Middle East social engineering still manage to have enough influence to get the US military to do foreign interventions? Will the US military still be strong enough to do them? Or will budget cuts and decay in quality of recruits cripple it?

The US government has managed for decades to expand the social welfare state by shrinking the military. When old age entitlements and also entitlements for the growing imported lower classes start costing more than can be squeezed from the military will we get consumption taxes, cuts in old age entitlements, or debts that drive us toward a sovereign debt crisis? Hyperinflation?

When the fiscal problems of the US government become more severe will the US liberal upper class opt to cut the welfare state or go for consumption taxes that will shift upper class leisure spending and 2nd homes to outside US borders?

When will computers start seriously gutting the demand for labor below 100 IQ? What will be the US government's policy responses?

When world oil production starts going down (and so far only US tight oil fracing has prevented it) will we witness something like the panic of 1929? At least worst than 2008?

Will the liberal upper class embrace eugenics once they can use genetic testing to choose higher IQ embryos? Will they embrace eugenics only privately and still demonize it publicly? Or just go silent about it while embracing it?

Will upper class moms start staying at home to teach their kids with AI learning systems?

From your own perspective what will go most wrong in the next 20 years? See anything going right to provide some relief?

Share |      By Randall Parker at 2014 July 06 09:19 PM 


Comments
Kevin said at July 7, 2014 6:18 AM:

Brazil is our future. As there, America will have enclaves. It's a good idea to start planning now. Decide which one to cast your lot with, move, and get established so you can play a part in defending/expanding it in the future. Currently there are perhaps four in the U.S. More may appear; some of the current ones may fade or fail.

Dan said at July 7, 2014 7:45 AM:

"America will have enclaves... Currently there are perhaps four in the U.S."

Care to share? I have Detroit, Cleveland and Philadelphia, which one is the fourth?

Dan said at July 7, 2014 7:53 AM:

I am seriously hoping the elite come to their senses. America needs someone like Warren Buffett or Bill Gates to report that this open borders thing cannot work. I would think they have a great deal to lose.

The Brazilification of America would not be good for capital markets. As a green investor, I had huge success with Petroleo Brasiliero, as they had major finds, and then I saw huge losses as the government turned PBR into their redistributive toy, forcing PBR to sell fuel to the poor at below market prices.

Ted Cunterblast said at July 7, 2014 10:18 AM:

Civil war.

Ted Cunterblast said at July 7, 2014 10:19 AM:

Civil war.

Nick said at July 7, 2014 11:19 AM:

Randall, I don't buy China as a major threat. This article sums it up for me "China Thinks it Can Defeat America in Battle" http://bit.ly/TYUleK

America is its own worst enemy. Corruption, moral decadence, cultural balkanization, these may ultimately be American's undoing, but its going to take a lot longer than 20 years before America (even a heavily "Brazilified" and "Mexicanized" one) is considered weaker than any other nation on earth.

James Bowery said at July 7, 2014 12:20 PM:

Since the Federal government considers the Nation of Settlers the enemy, the Nation of Settlers eventually sabotage transport of grain shipments out of the heartland in an attempt to destabilize the Federal government. Attempts to import replacement feedstocks from abroad collides with decreasing global arable land combined with the saturation of the Green Revolution. Geopolitical upheavals result worldwide. The US military intervention abroad to control food supplies saps its ability to suppress the domestic rebellion. Foreigners are inducted into the US military to suppress the domestic rebellion. Civil war erupts with the US military's logistics infrastructure becoming the primary target by the Nation of Settlers. This includes anything that supplies the US military with manufacturing capacity of equipment such as drones. The Nation of Settlers destroys all silicon fabs in the US. The US military becomes completely dependent on foreign manufacturing as well as increasingly dependent on foreign personnel. The bulk of the Boomers were indoctrinated by the motion picture industry, so they side with the Nation of Immigrants. The Nation of Immigrants sees the Boomers as parasites. The Nation of Settlers who are fighting an existential battle sees the Boomers as traitors. Boomers are killed en masse along with the white elites who thought they could play the same game that the Boomers were playing. The war then becomes a matter of who can kill most efficiently within the collapsing infrastructure.

James Bowery said at July 7, 2014 12:42 PM:

Oh, I should add that Steven Pinker writes a book about how this is a necessary hiccup in the long march toward the ultimate triumph of the better angles, but no one is reading books anymore.

The Sanity Inspector said at July 7, 2014 8:16 PM:

There will still be plenty of capable people of good will in the U.S. Our national values may erode, but not our neighborhood ones, not entirely.

SlargTarg said at July 8, 2014 1:38 AM:

One thing the left might try is to use the Supreme Court to unilaterally raise taxes in order to either bypass an unwilling congress or deflect blame from their democratic leaders in congress if they have control.

This has been done at the state level to pay for schools and such.

The argument they will use is that since SS and other entitlement promises were made, they MUST be paid for even if congress does not approve.

SlargTarg said at July 8, 2014 1:40 AM:

One thing the left might try is to use the Supreme Court to unilaterally raise taxes in order to either bypass an unwilling congress or deflect blame from their democratic leaders in congress if they have control.

This has been done at the state level to pay for schools and such.

The argument they will use is that since SS and other entitlement promises were made, they MUST be paid for even if congress does not approve.

destructure said at July 8, 2014 5:06 AM:

There's nothing magic about American dirt. To know what America will be like in 20 years look at what demographics will be in 20 years. Then look at countries who have those demographics today. There are no 3rd world countries, only 3rd world people.

Jim said at July 8, 2014 6:36 AM:

One interesting thing already developing is the difference between Canada and the US. Historically the US has been considerably richer per capita than Canada but that probably will reverse in the future. Canada is about 77% white and 14% Asian. If those demographics don't deterioate then Canada is likely to be much more of a First World country than the US in the not so distant future.

Jim said at July 8, 2014 7:05 AM:

destructure - You're quite right. Places like Brazil and the Congo have enormous economic potential just based on geography, climate, and natural resources. A place like Japan is mountainous (only 3% of the land area is arable), few natural resources, not located near major trade routes, subject to frequent catastrophic earthquakes and tsunamis. But Japan has the Japanese people who are more valuable than all of Brazil's natural wealth.

Mark said at July 8, 2014 7:20 AM:

"Will US leaders back down as the US Navy becomes a marginal and easily defeated force?"
It takes a long, long time to build up a modern military force. The US Navy will not be a marginal or easily defeated force for quite a while, particularly in blue water.

Jim said at July 8, 2014 7:22 AM:

In the last years of Belgian rule in the Congo the economy was growing robustly. If Belgian rule of the Congo had continued there wuold by now have been a huge improvement over the present living standard there. Independence for the Belgian Congo was a catastrophe for it's population.

John said at July 8, 2014 12:49 PM:

Will the Left then take more aggressive measures The first and second amendments will be gutted thanks to open borders. There's no question.

Will the US military still be strong enough to do them? Perhaps. As long as white traitors continue to fight for an establishment that has the extermination of their people and culture as its openly stated highest moral value and goal it might.

The only possible threat from China is if Chinese immigrants form a breakaway region in North America and invite the Chinese army in to help defend it. Not likely but possible in the distant future. If I were a neighbor of the Chinese on the other hand I would start developing nuclear bombs and delivery systems immediately. They want land and as soon as those pesky Western do-gooders are out of the way they'll take it.

Dr. Doom said at July 9, 2014 4:19 AM:

20 years? What planet are you living on? Even 20 months is an eternity in the rapidly deteriorating situation in the former USA. Hyperinflation will happen 15 minutes after the US Dollar stops being the World Reserve Currency. This could happen in a matter of months, as Russia, China and other countries start dumping the Dollar! At this point, I seriously doubt there will be a 2016 Election. Obama has so destroyed the Institution of the Presidency and the Government, that I doubt The United States will remain intact in its present form. Civil War is inevitable. The Taxpayers that feed the system are no longer being represented at The Rump Seat on the Potomac. Washington needs the Taxpayers, but the Taxpayers now see it as an ENEMY! They can try to destroy the Taxpayers if they revolt, but who will continue to fund their madness when they're gone?

The Man from K Street said at July 9, 2014 12:19 PM:

I'd like to hear what these four enclaves are too, Kevin.

Kent said at July 9, 2014 2:11 PM:

Kevin, I'd also like to know what 4 enclaves you're referring to...

Check it out said at July 9, 2014 4:42 PM:

"The US Supreme Court will be well to the left of where it is today. Will the Left then take more aggressive measures to restrict freedom of speech against wrong thinkers?"

More than in the Bush days when the 911 aftermath? I really doubt it. Patriot Act, Surveillance up the ass, impossibility to openly question the Official Version, etc.

The only true Left that Americans have ever know was many decades ago; perhaps centuries. And considering the ultra-right corporate governments of the last 40 or 50 years, I bet that anything different -like a true Left- would be most welcomed.

Check it out said at July 9, 2014 4:52 PM:

I agree with Dr. Doom fully. There's hardly any trace left of what was once called the USA. After 9-11-2001 it took the USA only 7 or 8 years to become a dictatorial regime. We don't really need to wait 20 more years, just 2 or 3. A full 180į turn into a Social Democracy would be best, but I don't think that could be accomplished with today's lazy-minded, jelly-tempered society. 2 or 3 more years.

Check it out said at July 9, 2014 4:54 PM:

Creativity and mental progress requires the courage to let go of certainties.

#nrx said at July 10, 2014 6:05 AM:

@Checkitout: I think you have a certainty or two to let go of.

Trent Telenko said at July 10, 2014 1:19 PM:

There will be a lot more MDR & XDR Tuberculosis.

See:


Americaís Impending Tuberculosis Epidemic
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/44047.html

Observer said at July 10, 2014 1:19 PM:

Red state secession is doable. The Red States would have most of the food and all of the oil and mineral wealth. Plus most of whatever's left of U.S. manufacturing.

The military wouldn't be a problem. Billy Bob from flyover country is not going to fire on his own people for the sake of some fat SWPL government-funded diversity coordinator or college professor. The Red States could get easily get military assistance from Russia, especially if Alaska goes along. Without libtards standing in their way, Alaska could drill baby drill in the Arctic Circle and offer Putin a share of the drilling rights in exchange for military hardware and other assistance.

The beauty of it would be that everything bad that's happened to the U.S. over the past 60 years would be nullified at the stroke of a pen: the '65 immigration act, open borders, the Great Society entitlements, the bad Supreme Court decisions like Bakke and Plyler vs. Doe. Gone baby gone.

Observer said at July 10, 2014 1:20 PM:

Red state secession is doable. The Red States would have most of the food and all of the oil and mineral wealth. Plus most of whatever's left of U.S. manufacturing.

The military wouldn't be a problem. Billy Bob from flyover country is not going to fire on his own people for the sake of some fat SWPL government-funded diversity coordinator or college professor. The Red States could get easily get military assistance from Russia, especially if Alaska goes along. Without libtards standing in their way, Alaska could drill baby drill in the Arctic Circle and offer Putin a share of the drilling rights in exchange for military hardware and other assistance.

The beauty of it would be that everything bad that's happened to the U.S. over the past 60 years would be nullified at the stroke of a pen: the '65 immigration act, open borders, the Great Society entitlements, the bad Supreme Court decisions like Bakke and Plyler vs. Doe. Gone baby gone.

James Bowery said at July 10, 2014 7:07 PM:

As I pointed out above, the US military will deploy Billy Bob abroad to secure agricultural feedstocks. It will then import foreigners to suppress domestic rebellion. That's what turns the domestic conflict into a full-blown civil war with devastating consequences.

David said at July 11, 2014 6:32 AM:

Enclaves? Don't be silly. Americans will be hacked to pieces in cold blooded, class fueled rage in 3rd world enclaves once it becomes accepted acknowledge that the US is impotent militarily.

Baby M said at July 11, 2014 7:08 AM:

"Will the liberal upper class embrace eugenics...?"

They already do--it's been a core component of "Progressive" ideology for over a century.

Ray said at July 11, 2014 8:11 AM:

It will be up to the gun owners to make sure that there is a bright line on turning citizens into slaves through disarmament. Follow the example of the Muslims in intimidating the "elites" by selectively beheading them. The advantages will be with those who own guns and are willing and able to use them effectively, should selective targeting fail to persuade.

SenatorMark4 said at July 11, 2014 8:50 AM:

I think grabbing control of government at the lowest level WILL change things for the better and quickly. The Bill of Rights will not be waved away by Americans!!!

When the people realize that aliens are getting $1000/person beds the government itself will suffer a C-P collapse.

Larry said at July 11, 2014 9:53 AM:

Will US political divisions become deeper and much more bitter? Will the hostility become open and continuous?

- The step beyond today's divisions involves violence.

The US will be far weaker compared to China. Will US leaders back down as the US Navy becomes a marginal and easily defeated force?

- We're still stronger than anybody else by far. It will take China decades to surpass us. They are getting old fast...

When American politics go further leftward will neocons and neoliberal advocates of US force for nation-building and Middle East social engineering still manage to have enough influence to get the US military to do foreign interventions? Will the US military still be strong enough to do them? Or will budget cuts and decay in quality of recruits cripple it?

- Don't ignore the coming of the drones/robots. Women aren't going into combat roles. Men are exiting combat roles.

The US government has managed for decades to expand the social welfare state by shrinking the military. When old age entitlements and also entitlements for the growing imported lower classes start costing more than can be squeezed from the military will we get consumption taxes, cuts in old age entitlements, or debts that drive us toward a sovereign debt crisis? Hyperinflation?

- Entitlements mostly go for natives and will continue to do so. (Progressive, personal) consumption taxes should replace income taxes. They would be fairer and help the economy grow faster because we wouldn't be taxing work. There is no reason to expect hyperinflation.

When the fiscal problems of the US government become more severe will the US liberal upper class opt to cut the welfare state or go for consumption taxes that will shift upper class leisure spending and 2nd homes to outside US borders?

- Consumption taxes hit the difference between income and savings/investment. It doesn't matter whether the second home is here or elsewhere.

When will computers start seriously gutting the demand for labor below 100 IQ? What will be the US government's policy responses?

- Already happening. It will accelerate. Do not encourage your kids to become truck drivers. And it's not a question of IQ. Only face2face jobs are somewhat safe. Have them go into sales.

When world oil production starts going down (and so far only US tight oil fracing has prevented it) will we witness something like the panic of 1929? At least worst than 2008?

- There is plenty of oil. And supply shocks can be mitigated with proper monetary policy. The next generation of economists will do better than this one.

Will the liberal upper class embrace eugenics once they can use genetic testing to choose higher IQ embryos? Will they embrace eugenics only privately and still demonize it publicly? Or just go silent about it while embracing it?

- They won't need to. Women will do it for them. The "end of men" will start to show up in birth statistics, as well as everywhere else.

Will upper class moms start staying at home to teach their kids with AI learning systems?

- They won't need to. AI will be everywhere. It will happen more quickly in developing countries, as will most other "scary" technology, such as drones, self-driving cars, etc.

From your own perspective what will go most wrong in the next 20 years? See anything going right to provide some relief?

We have a race between amazing technology and catastrophic governance. I remain hopeful.

Larry said at July 11, 2014 9:56 AM:

Oh...I get it. You're trying to gin up ideas for a post-apocalyptic sci-fi show, right?

Subotai Bahadur said at July 11, 2014 10:03 AM:
SlargTarg said at July 8, 2014 1:38 AM:

One thing the left might try is to use the Supreme Court to unilaterally raise taxes in order to either bypass an unwilling congress or deflect blame from their democratic leaders in congress if they have control.

Congress is already irrelevant and superfluous. We have not had a constitutional budget in 6 years. Government spending is in theory by Continuing Resolution, which is approved automatically giving the regime whatever it wants. The Debt Ceiling is totally in the hands of the regime, and in any case the government can and does create as much fiat currency as it wants. No need for court orders, until the fiat currency collapses. At which time court orders will be as irrelevant and superfluous as Congress. And it will not take any 20 years.

M. Report said at July 11, 2014 11:04 AM:

God only knows what the the world will look like in 20 years;
People can at best see 5 years into an out of focus future.

Unfortunately, most people have an adaptive blindness to future
troubles which they cannot avoid; 'Sufficient unto the day' and
'Don't look that way; There is nothing there you want to see'.

Those with vision and power have done what little they can to prepare
for the day when 'The Machine Stops' but there will still be a die-off.
Those who survive will rebuild our society in a form designed for the future,
with dynamic stability against technological change, graceful degradation
during bad times, and a strictly limited Franchise.


andyet said at July 11, 2014 11:49 AM:

The US Supreme Court will be well to the left of where it is today. Will the Left then take more aggressive measures to restrict freedom of speech against wrong thinkers? Am I writing stuff that will get me in trouble 20 years hence?

- Money is not free speech. Money is bribery. Money is corruption. Money is the poisoning of our democracy. Money is how the oligarchy maintains control. Our first task is to overturn Citizens United a restore democracy.

Will US political divisions become deeper and much more bitter? Will the hostility become open and continuous?

- Not as the angy old white males that make up the Tea party die off in the coming years. As they die off American politics will become more moderate. The right is doomed by demographics, time is on our side.

The US will be far weaker compared to China. Will US leaders back down as the US Navy becomes a marginal and easily defeated force?

- Not with China's disasterous one-baby polcy. Not only will China get old before it gets rich, it will have a serious gender imbalance. China's industrialization has also turned the country into a toxic cesspool. China has no future.

When American politics go further leftward will neocons and neoliberal advocates of US force for nation-building and Middle East social engineering still manage to have enough influence to get the US military to do foreign interventions? Will the US military still be strong enough to do them? Or will budget cuts and decay in quality of recruits cripple it?

- Not afer W/Cheny's disasterous Iraq invasion.

The US government has managed for decades to expand the social welfare state by shrinking the military. When old age entitlements and also entitlements for the growing imported lower classes start costing more than can be squeezed from the military will we get consumption taxes, cuts in old age entitlements, or debts that drive us toward a sovereign debt crisis? Hyperinflation?

- Our navy is bigger than the next 16 navies combined, and 15 of those are our allies. We still have a large armored force in Germany - are we afraid Lithuania may invade the West? Our bloated military could stand some cutting.

When the fiscal problems of the US government become more severe will the US liberal upper class opt to cut the welfare state or go for consumption taxes that will shift upper class leisure spending and 2nd homes to outside US borders?

- The Elite 0.1% already shift their wealth overseas to a avoid taxes. A treasonous act that should be dealt with accordingly.

When will computers start seriously gutting the demand for labor below 100 IQ? What will be the US government's policy responses?

- Never, automation creates more jobs than it destroys.

When world oil production starts going down (and so far only US tight oil fracing has prevented it) will we witness something like the panic of 1929? At least worst than 2008?

- Not when over 33% of our energy mix will be solar and renewables in the coming decades

Will the liberal upper class embrace eugenics once they can use genetic testing to choose higher IQ embryos? Will they embrace eugenics only privately and still demonize it publicly? Or just go silent about it while embracing it?

- Why would a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic political group embrace eugenics with all of its racist, Nazi connotations?

Will upper class moms start staying at home to teach their kids with AI learning systems?

- No but expensive colleges will be replaced by cheap distance learning. Now if only we could ban the teaching of Creationism and other anti-science stupidity of the Right.

From your own perspective what will go most wrong in the next 20 years? See anything going right to provide some relief?

- Things are going to be great.

P.S. "Observer": Red State succession is treason - traitors should be hanged. America would be a much better country if Sherman had burnt down all of the South and hanged the anti-democratic, slave holding Southern artistocracy.

Mombasa said at July 11, 2014 2:04 PM:

Eugenics is already at work in Chicago:

Last Updated Jul 7, 2014 3:00 PM EDT

CHICAGO - Police are dealing with the fallout from some unexpected fireworks over the past few days in Chicago. Eighty-two people were shot, 14 of them fatally, over the long Fourth of July weekend, according to the Chicago Tribune. The string of incidents kicked off in the afternoon on Thursday.

Ted Cunterblast said at July 11, 2014 2:21 PM:

Looks like ethnic cleansing is already at work in Chicago. Now, if we could get the orcs to eliminate themselves AND the Blue State progressive elites, that would be something. And it would make our future task of liberating the country a little less bloody.

LL said at July 11, 2014 3:09 PM:

Nice to see once again the Left shows the total power they want and how they don't tolerate difference.

And as History shows andyet will get the leftist treatment that he wants to give others, likewise he will give it to other fellow leftits.
Because leftists start to fight each other after they achieve power.

And since the leftist mind is totalitarian it means everything is on table.


An no Brazil is not the US future. Americans are much more intolerant, paranoid and disciplined.

Observer said at July 11, 2014 7:43 PM:

"andyet," how could it be treason to secede from the U.S.? Borders are just imaginary lines drawn on a map, as your kind never gets tired of bleating. Nothing treasonous about redrawing imaginary lines on a map.

Randall Parker said at July 11, 2014 7:43 PM:

Larry,

I do not understand your optimism about the US Navy against China. They can out-produce us. That means they can make more ships and submarines. Our fleet is shrinking.

Ships wear out. Our weapons acquisition budget is shrinking and will continue to shrink. The defense budget will shrink in order to pay for rising entitlements outlays. That's already happening and will continue.

My own perspective:

On the bright side stem cell therapy, gene therapy, and the like will advance. How fast? When will rejuvenation start happening? That's the best thing that will happen and I really really really hope I live long enough to get rejuvenated.

Also on the bright side: Robots and other forms of automation will mean that smart people won't need the growing lower classes anywhere near them. Much less need for manual labor means less need to have dumber people anywhere near you. So we could see the rise of areas with very high quality of life for bright productive people who can afford to live in some towns for the affluent.

Randall Parker said at July 11, 2014 7:48 PM:

Larry,

I think the sales force will peak and then shrink. I buy almost everything online now. I can't remember the last time I dealt with a sales rep. I even get a significant portion of my groceries delivered.

So what is the 100 IQ person going to do in sales? How about the 90 IQ person? Or the growing ranks of 80 IQ people?

Mark l said at July 11, 2014 9:09 PM:

I'll be in Canada. The US is toast. Any social improvement will just fall to massive immigration.

Our situation is manageable. Just not by this govt. or the citizens.

destructure said at July 11, 2014 9:50 PM:

"I really really really hope I live long enough to get rejuvenated."

Me, too. But death is necessary to make room for future generations. If people are being born and no one is dying the planet is going to fill up awful quick. Someone is going to have to die.

"I buy almost everything online now. I even get a significant portion of my groceries delivered."

I can't remember the percentage but I read a shocking number of storefronts are expected to close in the coming years due to online shopping. When you consider all the costs associated with operating a store it probably is cheaper to have most things delivered. But there will always be things people will want to see in person before they buy. I'm surprised you get groceries delivered though. Grocery stores have delivered for decades. But I've never done it or known anyone who has. I'm curious about details. Is that common where you live? Is it city or suburbs?

andyet said at July 12, 2014 2:45 PM:

"Borders are just imaginary lines drawn on a map, as your kind never gets tired of bleating."

My kind? I'm former USAF officer and registered Republican,though not for long.

There are three reasons for this switch:

A. Iím not a racist (and I donít hate Gays, Muslims , Hispanics and I treat women as equals.

B. Iím not stupid enough to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old. However I do know that evolution and climate change are both scientific facts.

C. And I believe in representative Democracy (as in ďWe the PeopleĒ) instead of corrupt, oppressive oligarchic rule by the uber-rich.

As you can see, my old GOP is dead and I no longer belong in this new GOP - I will soon be leaving.

As will every one else who is not a white trash Tea party loon.

Sgt. Joe Friday said at July 12, 2014 3:09 PM:

andyet said: "Not as the angy old white males that make up the Tea party die off in the coming years. As they die off American politics will become more moderate. The right is doomed by demographics, time is on our side."

If by "moderate" you mean more leftist, I agree. Thanks to demographic change, 20 years from now a Bill Clinton will be considered to be a right wing kook, Barack Obama center-right, and a Saul Alinksy a moderate.

As to your point about secession being treason, what if the territory that wanted to separate was southern California, 20 years from now Mexican in its language, culture, politics, and economy? Do you really think Washington DC would use military force to keep them in the Union? Not likely. Now, if it were whites in Idaho and Montana threatening to secede, then yes, I would expect the feds to use force many times in excess of what would actually be required to subdue the rebels, just to make sure nobody else got any ideas.

James Bowery said at July 12, 2014 3:10 PM:

Andyet, what are you going to do when the grain, and quite possibly oil shale oil, shipments out of the midwest are curtailed by between 50% and 90%? Or do you think the transportation infrastructure is robust enough to prevent that from happening?

I understand that you believe anyone who tries to escape your authority is the equivalent of a slave owner in the south. I understand your mindset perfectly and it is what is going to do you in.

andyet said at July 12, 2014 7:20 PM:

Now that the GOP has gone from the party of Ike and Lincoln to the party of Cliven Bundy and Todd Akin - what decent person would want to be a Republican? And the Tea Party is just the latest incarnation of the KKK, the John Birchers, the Know Nothings and very other reactionary nativist movement in American history. Your hatred of Hispanics is no different than the hatred of the nativists in the 1800s who put up signs saying "No Irish Need Apply" to prevent Irish immigrants from seeking employment.

All your talk of secession reminds me of a psychotic, stalker ex-boyfriend who says "If I can't have America, nobody can have her!" And make no mistake about it, this is no longer your America. Its an America where Gays can marry and a Black man is in the White House - and a woman will follow him into the Oval Office in 2016.

Too freakin' bad.

Your culture and your values are evil and they deserve to die out.

James Bowery said at July 12, 2014 7:45 PM:

You didn't answer my question. Denial of reality is also a pathology if you want to play throw the DSM at your opponent. What reality? The reality that secession is the opposite of "If I can't have America, nobody can have her!" Secession allows you to have your version of "America" whereas imposing slavery on people who are trying to escape you provokes war which _will_ result in the loss of America for everyone -- and that's reality. The Dream Is Over.

andyet said at July 13, 2014 3:11 AM:

The Dream is over for White Males, who are no longer in charge.

The dream was a nightmare for everyone else.

R.C. said at July 13, 2014 3:46 AM:

Re: Red State secession:

It seems to me that the Red States lack five things to be able to secede and not feel the "hiccup" from ditching the blue states:

1. A sufficiently dense concentration of financiers to establish an alternative capital-and-financial market alternative to New York;

2. A sufficiently dense concentration of brilliant techies and venture-capitalists to establish an alternative Silicon Valley;

3. Good ports dominated by Red Staters on the West Coast;

4. The majority of the Red States' population needs to shift away from public education (which in Red States is disastrously bad, even when compared to Blue States) towards a culturally conservative and educationally excellent alternative (probably a 25%/75% mix of homeschooling and private/parochial schools, with University Model Schooling and cultural shifts making the big jump in homeschooling possible).

5. A way to keep the strains of political opinion clear of leftists when, in pursuit of jobs, the leftists start migrating to the Red States.

andyet said at July 13, 2014 4:22 AM:

"The reality that secession is the opposite of "If I can't have America, nobody can have her!" "

Quite the contrary, secession means killing America.

"whereas imposing slavery on people who are trying to escape you"

"Slavery" being defined as forcing you to accept and tolerate Gays, Hispanics, Blacks, Muslims, and Women as equals.

That's what you really mean by government meddling in your lives, now isn't it?

destructure said at July 13, 2014 6:23 AM:

"A. Iím not a racist (and I donít hate Gays, Muslims , Hispanics and I treat women as equals.
B. Iím not stupid enough to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old.
C. And I believe in representative Democracy instead of corrupt, oppressive oligarchic rule by the uber-rich.
As you can see, my old GOP is dead and I no longer belong in this new GOP - I will soon be leaving.
As will every one else who is not a white trash Tea party loon."

The Dream is over for White Males, who are no longer in charge.
The dream was a nightmare for everyone else.

Your culture and your values are evil and they deserve to die out."

Interesting comments. They're not expressing a "live and let live" and "can't we all just get along?" attitude. They're expressing an extreme ant-white, anti-male, anti-religious and marxist mentality. It's hard to believe anyone with that value set was ever military or republican. I'm trying to decide whether they're a white person with extreme leftwing views or a nonwhite person with extreme rightwing views. They could also be some kind of radical homosexual and/or feminist. The same comments would, of course, come from an entirely different motivation depending on the characteristics of the person expressing them. Also interesting that they mentions gays, muslims, hispanics and women but not blacks. It's hard to imagine a black forgetting themselves so probably not black.

**

Hey Randall, 'andyet' and 'checkitout' wouldn't happen to be the same person would they?

andyet said at July 13, 2014 7:52 AM:

They're not expressing a "live and let live" and "can't we all just get along?" attitude.

Why should we live and let live with evil?

Ask any Black, Hispanic, Jew, Catholic, Gay or Woman if they'd would like to go back and live in your America Your America was a world where blacks could not vote and black men were regularly lynched, women knew their place, a Catholic (let alone a Black or a Woman) could never be president, Jews couldn't stay at certain hotels, Gays hid in fear, the air was poisonous and rivers caught on fire, and we all ducked and covered as we accepted any war fed to us.

You pine for a bad America.

P.S. My comments didn't forget Blacks. What do you think the "racist" thing is about?

Mombasa said at July 13, 2014 9:46 AM:

andyet said at July 13, 2014 7:52 AM:

Hysterical stuff. Pretty soon, we'll all live in the paradise called Detroit!

destructure said at July 13, 2014 10:16 AM:

andyet

Everyone can see you're an extremist of some kind. So what kind are you? What's driving it?

James Bowery said at July 13, 2014 2:26 PM:

Slavery consists of rendering it impractical to leave a situation. Practicality dictates access to territory of at least subsistence quantity and quality -- hence secession is a necessary concomitant to abolition of slavery. Does this mean the Civil War was fought for naught? Not entirely but to replace enslavement of individuals with enslavement of entire States is scant progress.

However, lets say that there were a territory somewhere in the world that represented the values of the Nation of Settlers that founded the US -- and that we could not only escape your plantation but also exclude from our territory all who would claim we are "oppressing" them with our "privilege" or whatever (hence there is no "evil" in your definition possible). The US government is now establishing a world-wide plantation by, for example, enforcing the equivalent of fugitive slaves laws under world-wide agreement whereby the US can claim a fugitive slave owes it money and no matter where the fugitive slave goes to escape, they can confiscate his income -- even if it is subsistence. Moreover, any "compromise" whereby "subsistence" might be exempted will keep the door open to defining "subsistence" in such a way that the risk of early death is substantially higher.

No, you're a slaver and you will be killed along with the rest of your subhuman ilk unless you relent.

As for your assertion that secession will kill America, you're just blathering. America didn't always consist of 50 states nor even 48 contiguous states.

shiva1008 said at July 13, 2014 5:27 PM:

> Your hatred of Hispanics is no different than the hatred of the nativists in the 1800s who put up signs saying "No Irish Need Apply" to prevent Irish immigrants from seeking employment.

This is a myth.

Abstract

Irish Catholics in America have a vibrant memory of humiliating job discrimination, which featured omnipresent signs proclaiming "Help Wanted--No Irish Need Apply!" No one has ever seen one of these NINA signs because they were extremely rare or nonexistent. The market for female household workers occasionally specified religion or nationality. Newspaper ads for women sometimes did include NINA, but Irish women nevertheless dominated the market for domestics because they provided a reliable supply of an essential service. Newspaper ads for men with NINA were exceedingly rare. The slogan was commonplace in upper class London by 1820; in 1862 in London there was a song, "No Irish Need Apply," purportedly by a maid looking for work. The song reached America and was modified to depict a man recently arrived in America who sees a NINA ad and confronts and beats up the culprit. The song was an immediate hit, and is the source of the myth. Evidence from the job market shows no significant discrimination against the Irish--on the contrary, employers eagerly sought them out. Some Americans feared the Irish because of their religion, their use of violence, and their threat to democratic elections. By the Civil War these fears had subsided and there were no efforts to exclude Irish immigrants. The Irish worked in gangs in job sites they could control by force. The NINA slogan told them they had to stick together against the Protestant Enemy, in terms of jobs and politics. The NINA myth justified physical assaults, and persisted because it aided ethnic solidarity. After 1940 the solidarity faded away, yet NINA remained as a powerful memory.

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm

Nice scholarship, propagating lies andyet. I'm sure the rest of your views are equally well-informed.

andyet said at July 13, 2014 7:34 PM:

Shiva1008:

Richard Jensen is the only scholar that makes this claim, and he is hotly disputed by other scholars. And even he admits to he existence of ads placed in newspapers that included the infamous NINA phrase and that there was rampant anti-Irish discrimination and violence in early 19th century America - mostly from the Know Nothings, the 19th century version of the Tea Party. As for the signs in shop windows, there would be no physical record of them now would there? Yet diaries and other anecdotal evidence shows they existed and represented wide spread anti-Irish prejudice.

for better research see "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev. It contains a number of well-researched incidents.

Jensen OTOH is basing his argument on a linguistic quibble--whether or not the exact wording "No Irish Need Apply" ever appeared on a sign or newspaper advertisement, the fact is that "Only Americans need apply" and "Protestants only" were both quite common in the early 19th century.

As Jensen notes, the popularity of the phrase as a catch-all for anti-Irish discrimination was cemented by the 1860s rise to popularity of the song "No Irish Need Apply." Certainly, "no Irish need apply" was a much catchier (and easy to rhyme) phrase than "Protestants only."

andyet said at July 13, 2014 7:37 PM:

"As for your assertion that secession will kill America, you're just blathering."

Just me and Lincoln, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

James Bowery said at July 13, 2014 7:47 PM:

He doesn't need to be well informed. He's got the world's greatest nuclear superpower backing up his horseshit. Safety in numbers and all that. Its why it is pretty much futile to have a "national conversation" and you need to be prepared to neutralize these mere forces of nature by he most economical means available which often times unfortunately involves a lot of collateral damage as they are very good at seeking out innocents behind which to hide.

James Bowery said at July 13, 2014 8:02 PM:

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." said the House Negro.

Frankly, you and your "house" are guaranteed to fall if you don't relent.

Randall Parker said at July 13, 2014 10:28 PM:

destructure,

I'm in a suburb, albeit a fairly densely populated suburb. Grocery stores deliver. I think in the last year I've only used cash to get my hair cut and to pay some delivery guys who moved something for me. The only in-person stores I've been to is a drug store, a grocery store and also the post office to send a box. I go to the grocery store mostly because I can walk and look for tasks that will get me some exercise. I'm way online in my lifestyle. I could easily cut out stores entirely. I'm pretty close to that now.

Your commenter question: Some people actually post under different pseudonyms. One guy who has not shown up in a while used 3. However, andyet is in America. So I do not think they are the same people. The style is different too. Different kind of anger. I think he's pretending on part of his identity to give his criticisms more force.

andyet,

The Tea Party are not white trash. I grew up with white trash and really it is way beyond the range of white trash to be politically organised locally or nationally. You do not seem to understand the Tea Party since your talking points about them come from Liberal Left media hatchet jobs. The Tea Party demographics is more educated and affluent.

andyet said at July 14, 2014 3:19 AM:

"guaranteed to fall if you don't relent."

Relent what exactly? details,please.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 4:18 AM:

Relent in the denial of the Declaration of Independence by the conceit that the Civil War was, in the minds of the men who sacrificed their lives to win it (as opposed to the hypocrites like Lincoln who cynically used the issue of slavery for further centralization of power), about anything but the abolition of slavery -- an institution that denied the Declaration of Independence at the level of the individual when it said: "it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness".

andyet said at July 14, 2014 5:30 AM:

If centralized federal power ends slavery , then centralized fedreal power must be good.

If states rights allows or encourages slavery, then states rights must be bad.

Unless you are an evil nut job who sees Lincoln as a villain.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 6:06 AM:

Only an idiot takes one data point, ignoring all the others such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Union and Maoist China, and generalizes it to the point that the entire world should be under a single central government imposing a set of social theories favored by sociopaths who dedicate their lives to acquiring its reigns of power.

Oh, wait... may be not an idiot if one is such a sociopath.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 8:27 AM:

One of the primary dangers to people pursuing secession is that their contact with guys like "andyet" in virtually all venues of "the national conversation" will lead them to believe that the opponents of secession that are actually in power are that mindless. While it is true that the principle danger of possessing power is that one starts to believe one's own material, one should keep in mind that sociopaths don't have to buy their own material and that recent studies have shown sociopaths are highly concentrated in these centers of power.

Nevertheless, sociopathy is primarily a quality selected for in high population density environments -- environments where there is a lot of "food". This is their weakness. They simply cannot conceive of a world in which the people who built civilization --in this case The Nation of Settlers -- decide to take advantage of their relative strength to not only build but destroy civilization and have a much higher survival rate during the interregnum than either the sociopaths or their idiot minions.

Check it out said at July 14, 2014 4:18 PM:

Yep, for every cowardly nation there's always a dictator.

This was the U.S.A. Hope you enjoyed it.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 4:55 PM:

Enjoy this.

Actually, that is merely for the benefit of idiot minions who were somehow admitted to the US military and think that they're going to be able to take out a bunch of "white trash" who are armed to the teeth in places like Iowa which originated the computer at an agricultural school for "white trash" as well as the founder of Intel Corporation from "white trash" Grinnell or this particular piece of "white trash" who was called in by SAIC along with about 10 other guys during an imminent nuclear war priority project to pull the Join Chiefs of Staff out of the fire in the Persian Gulf due to their gross incompetence.

The kinds of things that will be done to reduce grain and oil shipments out of the midwest by 50% to 90% are so far beyond the comprehension of these idiots that they wouldn't believe how few people of the right kind are required.

If I were Obama et al, I'd be seeking out a "national conversation" on how to go about peacefully partitioning US territory because it clearly is time for partition. Most of the Federal government, media and about half the population believes that any otherwise law abiding person in the world who wants to be a US citizen should be able to immigrate to the US and become a citizen. This use of national territory is clearly incompatible with the other half of the US population. This is not going to be resolved by "a national conversation". It is going to be resolved by partition of national territory. Partition is very difficult to achieve without war. The "national conversation" about immigration should be replace by "a national conversation" about peaceful partition. If you are against such a national conversation, you are promoting war.

Peter said at July 14, 2014 5:14 PM:

Grinnell has never been considered "white trash". It's always been considered an elite small, if less well known, liberal arts college.

Randall Parker said at July 14, 2014 7:18 PM:

andyet,

Lets take your argument to its logical conclusion. Centralized power is good. Down with city power, state power, even national power.

If centralized federal power ends slavery , then centralized fedreal power must be good.

If states rights allows or encourages slavery, then states rights must be bad.

Unless you are an evil nut job who sees Lincoln as a villain.

If centralized power is good then why not a world government with dictatorial powers?

Also, in the American revolution the colonists rebelled against centralized power in London. But since centralized power ended slavery (and it did in the British Empire sooner than in America) then the American rebellion must have been bad. After all, if the rebels had been defeated then slavery would have ended sooner.

Centralized power is good.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 8:32 PM:

Peter, you should tell that to the folks I knew who went to Grinnell College (including by brother) who felt so obliged to live down the "Iowa hick" image that they easily out-weirded California and suffered corresponding casualties.

Peter said at July 14, 2014 9:15 PM:

I would also add that Iowa in general doesn't have a "white trash" image. The "white trash" image is generally ascribed to parts of the South and Appalachia. It's not something usually ascribed to Midwestern folk. The "hick" image is more common.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 9:28 PM:

The subtle nuances distinguishing "hick" from "white trash" escape most.

James Bowery said at July 14, 2014 10:26 PM:

The Redneck Manifesto: How Hillbillies Hicks and White Trash Became Americas Scapegoats. ISBN 0-684-83864-8

Don't you just hate 'em? Every gap-toothed, inbred, uncivilized, violent and hopelessly DUMB one of 'em? Jesus, how can you not hate em? There's no class of people with less honor. Less dignity. No one more ignorant. More gullible. They're a primitive breed with prehistoric manners, unfit for anything beyond petty crime and random bloodletting. Their stunted, subhuman minds are mesmerized by cheap alcohol, Lotto fever, and the asinine superstitions of poor-folks' religion. They stop beating their wives just long enough to let 'er squeeze out another deformed rug rat. They scatter their hand-me-down genes in a degenerative spiral of dysfunction. They breed anencephalic, mouth-breathing children. Vulgarians. All of them. Bottom feeders. They really bring down their race.

Luckily for you, I didn't specify which race that is. If I'd been talking about black trash, I might be lynched. If I was talking about white trash, I'd merely be another torchbearer in an ongoing national lynching. The difference between vile racism and precision satire all depends on the nigger's color.

Ted Plank said at July 15, 2014 1:23 AM:

Andyet discusses the prevalence of lynching, back in "The Bad Old Days". Actually, lynching was quite rare. More African Americans die at the hands of other African Americans every year, even in recent years where crime rates have dramatically lowered, than died by lynching in the 100 years after Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox.

The current paradise Andyet imagines blacks live in sees 60% of young African American men not finishing the dumbed down 2014 version of high school, anywhere from 35% to 45% of black fetuses aborted, 73% of black children abandoned by their fathers to be raised by single mothers, one out of three black men seeing the inside of a prison or jail cell in their lifetime, 50% of black women have herpes, sky high alcoholism, drug addiction, mental illness and suicide rates compared to other American ethnicities, an unemployment rate at least twice as high as whites and, after 50 years of leftist tinkering, a net average household worth of $5,600, approximately 1/20 the net average household worth of whites, at $113,000.

Factoring in that Latinos were a tiny percentage of the population in American frontier life (the Anglo/mestizo ratio in revolutionary Texas was 20 to 1, gringo immigration was encouraged as a bulwark against the fearsome Comanches and Apaches), how does Andyet explain the large numbers of both Latino and Asian immigrants who have kept coming and coming to a majority white nation over the past century and a half?

I won't get into the rejection of feminism by most American women or the fact that the US is one of the more enlightened nations on Earth when it comes to gay rights, or that two of the most backwards demographic sectors in the advancement of the American homosexual agenda are the black and Latino voting blocs.

Rather than being intimidated by Andyet's bluster, my main reaction is sort of a quizzical amusement. It doesn't ring right, somehow.

Jim said at July 15, 2014 1:49 PM:

Estimates of the number of blacks lynched in the century after the Civil War range from 1-3,000. Today about 7,000 blacks are homicide victims every year in the US. Most of them die at the hands of other blacks.

Peter said at July 15, 2014 4:29 PM:

James, Midwesterners like Iowans, Minnesotans, Wisconsinites generally don't get labelled "white trash". It's not until you reach Missouri and further South that you see that label being thrown around.

James Bowery said at July 15, 2014 11:08 PM:

Yes, Peter, I got that as clearly manifest in my quote from "The Redneck Manifesto"'s subtitle that includes "hicks" as another pejorative for the maligned group. And?

Peter said at July 16, 2014 3:51 PM:

You seem to be saying that it refers to the same people.

James Bowery said at July 17, 2014 8:46 AM:

Peter there are groups and there are groups of groups and there are various nomenclatures for them -- but only one thing counts here:

The culture that founded the civilization in the US finds that its land is being taken from it in an undeclared war spanning over a century. I call this culture "The Nation of Settlers". The nameless war might be called "The American Clearances". The point is that the most valuable asset most people have is their citizenship in the country founded by The Nation of Settlers and the value of that asset is being attacked on two fronts: 1) By immigrants who are only too conscious of the value of the territory they're occupying. 2) By clueless elites don't realize that slavery (although they call it "the free market") is a deal with the devil.


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