2010 September 13 Monday
Inductivist And Imam Rauf: Muslim Extremists Deranged

As the Inductivist points out the logic is obvious enough:

Imam Rauf informs us that he does not plan to move the site for the Ground Zero Mosque because doing so would inflame the Muslim world and would put U.S. soldiers and citizens in danger. In other words, people will be murdered because some Muslims were pressured to build their mosque down the road a bit. Although he doesn't realize it, what Rauf is arguing is that the extremists of his faith truly are deranged.

Rauf expresses concern about how Muslims will react if the mosque is moved.

His main reason for pressing ahead with the “Muslim Y,” as he called it, was “national security”—a possible explosion of anger in the Muslim world. “I am extremely concerned about sensitivity,” he explained. “But I also have a responsibility. If we move from that location, the story will be that the radicals have taken over the discourse. The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack.”

It isn't just the extremists who are deranged. The supposedly moderate center of Islam is deranged by Western values. Razib points to the views of University of Delaware Director of Islamic Studies Muqtedar Khan on the idea of Koran burning:

Along with the idea of God and prophets, the Quran is the thing that Muslims hold the dearest. My children have been listening to it since even before they were born. I use to recite it to them while they were still in the womb. Their children will be reciting it to them when they will be lowered in to their tomb. Believe me, there is nothing more precious to Muslims than the Quran, and watching people toss it into fire, will be horrifying. I would rather burn in fire myself, than watch a Quran burn.

I am amazed at how millions of Americans who are decent and honorable can watch this happen. No matter how ugly the act the Constitution permits this, is not an acceptable excuse. The Constitution does not permit this. The Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. For Muslims this is worse than torture.

When I say Muslim values are incompatible with Western values I am making an observation that is obvious to anyone who doesn't hold an entirely irrational and unjustified faith in the universalism of Liberal values (I realize I've just ruled out most mainstream reporters and commentators). What's more insane than Muslims? Western Liberals who can't see that they themselves embrace a faith that is a minority outlier in the world. Their faith puts us in peril in the long run.

In Razib's own post "A misunderstanding of civility" he points out that obviously this Muslim professor does not have Western values.

This is kind of weird coming from someone with Western values, but totally in keeping with someone espousing values which are normal in the Muslim world. Muslims do revere the Koran and Muhammed in a manner which is hard to understand for someone with a Western background. Unfortunately for Muslims if they move to a majority non-Muslim Western society their values are simply out of step, and they need to adjust

But they do not want to adjust. They insist their host society adjust to them. They believe their values should take precedence, to the point of reinterpreting the US constitution to match their values and beliefs.

People who believe that their holy book should never be burned, that the US constitution forbids that their holy book should ever be burned, hold beliefs that are not compatible with a free society. Someone in America, a free society, should be free to burn any book as a protest. They should be free to burn records, flags, articles of clothing, or effigies. This is a free society where symbolic acts in protests are accepted as a form of free expression, a form of free speech. If Muslims can't handle that they should emigrate to a society more congenial to their world view.

The radicals are convinced they can recruit more jihadists if the mosque is not built. Think about that. We have to bow to Islam or more will join the jihad. This view is relayed in a column by Nicholas Kristof of the NY Times who is arguing that we should treat Islam with more respect. My take: respect is earned.

Newsweek quoted a Taliban operative, Zabihullah, about opposition to the mosque near ground zero: “By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor. It’s providing us with more recruits, donations and popular support.” Mr. Zabihullah added, “The more mosques you stop, the more jihadis we will get.”

In America, bigoted comments about Islam often seem to come from people who have never visited a mosque and know few if any Muslims. In their ignorance, they mirror the anti-Semitism that I hear in Muslim countries from people who have never met a Jew.

Asks Kristof:

How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?

Well, that Koran which so many Muslims and their sympathizers do not want to see burned also makes repeated claim to being the single true religion that should rule the world and force all to bow to it. Is that not barbaric? If it is not barbaric then what is it?

Share |      By Randall Parker at 2010 September 13 08:16 PM  Civilizations Clash Of

Wolf-Dog said at September 14, 2010 12:17 AM:

As quoted above, if the Taliban official is saying “The more mosques you stop, the more jihadis we will get”, and if Imam Rauf is concurs, then maybe we should ask them what their reaction will be if the US and EU ask them permission to build churches and Buddhist temples in Saudi Arabia and in Afghanistan.

After all, we saw that the Taliban authorities demolished the ancient Buddhist sculptures and monuments in Afghanistan:


OneSTDV said at September 14, 2010 6:35 AM:

Yea like they really need more reasons to hate us.

Engineer-Poet said at September 14, 2010 11:20 AM:

So either we allow the mosque to be built and recruit jihadis through triumphalism ("the strong horse"), or we force the mosque to be moved and recruit jihadis through muslim outrage.

I'd rather outrage them.  Hand me that Koran and the lighter, please.

Double Ought said at September 14, 2010 3:43 PM:

"I'd rather outrage them. Hand me that Koran and the lighter, please."

At a certain point, someone is going to hand you more ammunition. Not a joke...

Randall Parker said at September 14, 2010 8:52 PM:


In the comments threads of an excellent post by Razib about Islam I had this to say:

Razib, Obviously there are situations where it is unwise to annoy the barbarians. I certainly would not do it when in barbarian societies. But I also see gains from annoying barbarians: The barbarian reactions educate the general public in ways that you otherwise can’t educate them.

We live in an era where the very notion of the existence of barbarians is denied by the liberal mainstream. They would have us believe the world is just full of a richness of equally valid and equally moral cultures. Pushing the emotional buttons of barbarians helps to clarify understanding. So I’m for it in most cases.

The barbarians are only dangerous if we let them get close. The liberals want to let the barbarians get close. Symbolic acts by some Koran-burning pastor yield rich dividends.

As for threats to US troops from Koran-burning: These threats should cause us to reexamine the supposed utility of occupying barbarian lands. We should find ways to enhance our security without occupying those lands. Besides, we are just increasing the food supply of a country still caught in the Malthusian Trap. So more barbarians.

Also see his post Islam, generalizations, barbarism, and structural conflicts.

Engineer-Poet said at September 14, 2010 9:31 PM:

I'm doing okay for ammunition, though I would be happy to trade some hardball for hollow points.

As for threats to US troops from Koran-burning: These threats should cause us to reexamine the supposed utility of occupying barbarian lands.
If entire societies are irredeemably threatening to us (e.g. re-admitting Al Qaeda if we leave), we should consider every single individual a combatant if they are over the age of, say, 5.

Food for thought:  why shouldn't Afghanistan and the Hindu Kush be Hindu and Buddhist again?

Contemplationist said at September 18, 2010 9:40 AM:

Hah that 7 million number is a hoot. The best estimate of the number of Muslims in the US is somewhere between 2 and 4 million.
Thats it. This population inflation is done to increase the clout of insidious organisations like CAIR.

beejeez said at September 19, 2010 6:46 AM:

Yes, we must repress Islam. Because you never see Christian extremists in the U.S.

Randall Parker said at September 19, 2010 3:11 PM:


No Christian extremists have forced anyone into hiding. Yet some Americans and Europeans are living in hiding from Muslims due to death threats.

Engineer-Poet said at September 19, 2010 10:27 PM:
No Christian extremists have forced anyone into hiding.
Drs. Tiller and Slepian may have wished they had been in hiding.
rechill said at September 25, 2010 6:57 AM:

We're not free to burn crosses. Just saying.

Randall Parker said at September 25, 2010 11:52 AM:


What is your point?

Mthson said at September 25, 2010 9:23 PM:

Engineer-Poet said: "If entire societies are irredeemably threatening to us (e.g. re-admitting Al Qaeda if we leave), we should consider every single individual a combatant if they are over the age of, say, 5."

Right, wars like the Iraq War and Afghanistan war are only unwinnable in the modern era because conservatism exists within a liberal cultural context (marching East on a Westward ship, as Randall pointed out Derbyshire put it). It's not possible in today's world to be conservative enough to win those wars (in the pragmatic way the Romans would have).

The liberal cultural context and the female and NAM voters that make it possible neuter the kind of conservatism that built the British and Roman empires.

Randall Parker said at September 26, 2010 10:19 AM:


Since the wars are unwinnable we should not fight them. We do not need to fight them anyway.

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