2006 November 26 Sunday
Catholic Church Not Legal In Turkey

The status of the Roman Catholic Church in Turkey shows what a farce it is for the European Union to consider admission of Turkey to the EU. The Catholic Church in Turkey functions as an appendage to foreign embassies.

The Roman Catholic Church is not legally recognized in Turkey. It functions largely attached to foreign embassies; its priests do not wear their collars in public.

Meanwhile many American cities now have large mosques jutting up in the skyline.

Most Christians in Turkey are of the Armenian, Greek and other Orthodox denominations, and although most of these are recognized in the Turkish Constitution as minority communities, they face severe restrictions on property ownership and cannot build places of worship or run seminaries to train their clerics.

Such hardships make it almost impossible for Christians to sustain and expand their communities, advocates say. The Greek Orthodox, for example, have dwindled to no more than 3,000, just 2% of the community's size in the 1960s.

Turkey has one thing in common with France and Britain: Growing Islamic radicalism.

Fueled by a vitriolic, and growing, potion of nationalism and Islamic radicalism, spasms of violence have led to the killing of one priest this year, the beatings of two others and the burning of a Christian prayer center. Christian tombstones are often vandalized and property frequently confiscated by authorities.

Time for the West to separate itself from the Islamic countries. Stop letting in Muslim immigrants. Deport the vast bulk of the non-citizen Muslims. Stop getting involved in the internal affairs of Muslim countries. These are the best policies for defending our civilization from Muslims.

The Turkish government denies poor treatment of non-Muslims. You didn't expect them to be honest, did you?

"Obviously, more needs to be done to promote religious freedom for all denominations," Ali Bardakoglu, president of Turkey's powerful Religious Affairs Directorate, said in an interview. But he defended the government's treatment of minorities, contending that Christians and other non-Muslims do not face serious problems.

Bardakoglu was one of the most emphatic critics of Benedict after the pope delivered a speech in Regensburg, Germany, in September that denounced Islamic violence and quoted a medieval Byzantine emperor who disdained Islam and its prophet, Muhammad. Adding insult to injury, as far as many Turks were concerned, the emperor was defending Constantinople, cradle of Orthodox Christianity, against the Muslim conquest that gave the city its name today: Istanbul.

Well, the Turks did invade and overthrow the Byzantines. Why shouldn't the Pope verbally defend Constantinople?

Pope is kowtowing to the Turkish government.

In a remarkable gesture, the pope will meet with Bardakoglu, the country's top religious figure, at his ministry, a modern, imposing building on Ankara's outskirts, on the first day of his Turkey visit. Bardakoglu's directorate commands a huge budget and oversees all of Turkey's imams.

Originally, the Vatican expected Bardakoglu to call on the pope at the Vatican Embassy, as protocol would have dictated. But the Turks refused. After a series of negotiations, the pope agreed to go to Bardakoglu. "It is a gesture of goodwill," a senior Vatican official said.

Of course Saudi Arabia is far worse toward Christians. A single church? Just fuggedaboutit.

What's progress for Christians in Turkey? A Protestant group was allowed to open its own church. It took the weight of the EU for Turkey to make such a small pathetic step.

It is EU pressure that has nudged Ankara along in easing some of the restrictions on minorities; for example, a Protestant group in Istanbul has for the first time been allowed to open a church.

Turkey is purported to be the moderate, secular, democratic model for the rest of the Muslim countries. Western expectations are so low for the Muslims that Turkey can get rated as somehow modern and Western in spite of the fact that it isn't.

The Pope has a fairly accurate and realistic take on Islam. Back in 1997 before he was Pope he gave an interview where he discussed Islam. For an excerpt see my post: Pope Benedict Sees Islam Incompatible With Western Societies.

I agree with Lawrence Auster that we should take the path of civilizational defense and separate the West from Islam. We can't assimilate them in our countries. We can not convince them to abandon Islam and Islam itself is simply incompatible with the West as Pope Benedict argues. We aren't compatible. We need a divorce. It is really that simple.

Share |      By Randall Parker at 2006 November 26 08:59 PM  Civilizations Clash Of


Comments
birch barlow said at November 27, 2006 6:39 AM:

Islam, as it is practiced by probably something like 90% (if not more) of its followers around the world, is simply a menace. To me it is uniquely problematic--mass nonwhite immigration, for example, can be compromised with and harnessed into something positive for the West. Mass unskilled immigration, regardless of race, is quite destructive, but I think its results can be handeled to an extent if it is not allowed to continue for too long. Islam, however, cannot be compromised with. Other than a tiny fraction of Muslims (if even that), Islam is waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy out there.

For those who don't agree with me (and Randall and Larry Auster), I think it might be instuctive to think about Christains who have similar beliefs to most Muslims--i.e., those that are sympathetic to bombing abortion clinics (a form of terrorism, if not quite as despicable as Islamic terror), those who believe women should be covered from head to toe and heavily subjugated, those who believe that alcohol and/or tobacco should be completely illegal and use severly punished, and that users of marijuana, and recreational users of OTC and prescription drugs should be punished with long prison terms or even death. If you are honest with yourself, and especially if you are on the left side of the political spectrum, you would definately see these beliefs as wacko or just plain evil, if believed by Christains or Jews. Yet many leftists, and even so-called conservatives, are just fine with something like 90% of Muslims in the world believing such things, even while they harshly (and rightly) criticize the tiny minority (probably less than 5% of Christains and Jews) who hold the above, and related beliefs. I might add that with regard to Muslims, the beliefs I listed are just for starters--this is not to mention those who think Sept. 11 was justified and/or a Jewish conspiracy, for example.

Katie's Dad said at November 27, 2006 8:01 AM:

Considering that Islam differs primarily from all other religions in that its owners' manual, the Koran, contains within it the doctrines of both a religion and a political system, allowing Muslims to immigrate to the United States is a threat to sovereignty. I feel that the establishment of a Mosque in America may well be a violation of the Constitution on the grounds that it establishes a government that is not elected by the immediate neighborhood or community.

Each new mosque sets up a situation in which Muslims in a community have their own governing body that is likely to come into conflict with its parallel, democratically-elected governing body. Once Muslims attain majority status in a town, there is nothing to preclude them from establishing Shari'a law, thus subjugating to some extent the non-Muslim Americans who remain in the jurisdiction. And I suspect that is the plan.

The fact that, despite Ataturk's best efforts to permanently Westernize it, Turkey is now sliding into a Muslim rule antithetical to all Western values is evidence enough for me to conclude that followers of Islam should be barred from entry to Western nations. There is a disconnect between the cultural histories of Islam and nations that exist solely as a result of Judeo-Christianity that simply cannot be overcome.

While all cultures may be of "equal worth," it is lunacy to believe they are precisely equal or that members of all cultures can "just get along" when placed in close residential proximity to one another. The multiculturalist lives in denial of human nature all of the time, and the denial becomes especially dangerous when he believes that America can assimilate every sort of person from every sort of culture on this earth then uses political correctness to enforce his foolish assumptions upon us all.

birch barlow said at November 27, 2006 9:36 AM:

"The multiculturalist lives in denial of human nature all of the time, and the denial becomes especially dangerous when he believes that America can assimilate every sort of person from every sort of culture on this earth then uses political correctness to enforce his foolish assumptions upon us all."

Quite true. There are three critical ideas (similar to those in Pinker's _The Blank Slate_, but I would state them a little differently) about human nature, and nature in general, that must be taken to account:

1) Humans are deeply flawed (we are savages but definitely not noble)
2) The degree to which we are flawed, and the particular ways we are flawed differs substantially between individuals and between groups (we are not equal blank slates)
3) We are powerless, or at least have very limited power, to change this reality (human will, or "the ghost in the machine" is highly constrained if there is even such a thing at all)

As the War Nerd says: "When you lie to other people, it can work. When you lie to yourself, you pay. We're going to be paying a long, long time."

Fred said at November 27, 2006 11:08 AM:

"The status of the Roman Catholic Church in Turkey shows what a farce it is for the European Union to consider admission of Turkey to the EU."

The odds that Turkey will enter the EU diminish month by month, and I believe Turkey will never enter the EU. It has eight years to go before this is even possible. If Turkey is eventually invited in, the condition of the EU will have become so tattered that the Turks would probably refuse.

However, many in Turkey suspect that the current government is not actually interested in joining the EU, but rather is using the bid for EU membership as a pretext for weaking the role of the military in the Turkish political system. The military has historically been the protector of the Turkish Constitution, and many believe that a weakened and more peripheral military will be less able to maintain the secular aspects of Turkish society. The role of religion in government and society is the main point of conflict and tension in Turkish society, and is easily as divisive as issues of race in America.

It is legal to practice any religion, or none, in Turkey, but the government does not make it easy for churches or synogogues to form or expand. The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate Seminary, the main institution for the training of new Orthodox priests in Turkey, was closed by the government in 1971, and has never been reopened. Furthermore, there are allegations of government discrimination against the Alevis, a minority Muslim sect in Turkey. Most Turks see their country as a homogenously Sunni Muslim society, and other religions are therefore viewed by many with suspicion, at best.

It is useful to remember that the current Turkish Prime Minister once claimed, earlier in his political career, that the US possessed a bomb that kills only Muslims. This claim would seem to deny known facts of human biology, although it is possible that he believes Muslims constitute a radically different species. Last year, during the bird flu scare, a retired Turkish General called for a government investigation into this phenomenon, since it is widely "known" that the US regularly tests its biological weapons on foreign populations, and therefore the possibilty that bird flu in Turkey was actually a form of weapons testing being carried out by the US needed to be looked into. The latest of these rumors is that a Turkish patient recently visited the US for medical treatment. While there, some of his/her blood was drawn, and the US is now using this blood sample to develop a virus that will prove lethal, again, only to Turks. As you can see, sound education in biology and human physiology is not widespread in Turkish society. These are not the suspicions of strange, fringe groups in Turkey. They reflect the general trend of popular thought, often among those with university educations.

Dave said at November 27, 2006 12:43 PM:

Turks didn't invade the Ottomans, the Ottoman Empire was Turkish. It was the Turkish Ottomans who tried to invade Europe and nearly succeeded.

One of the reasons not to allow Turkey into the EU is they have a massively expanding demographic where-as most 'white' Europeans are in decline, I saw an artical predicting the future of Europe with Turkey saying they would very soon out number the rest of Europe on their own, 100-150 years on current trends, although it may have been scaremongering its not that unbelievable to me.

Georg Crockman said at November 27, 2006 1:00 PM:

The tendency to over-procreate is strong in groups with low intelligence and few prospects to improve themselves. What else are they going to do except join insanely fanatical religions? Either build a tall fence around them, or find a way to neutralize their procreative abilities from afar.

Tony said at November 27, 2006 1:21 PM:

Turkey wont be joining Europe. Even the purblind ostriches that run the show here know that the public wont wear it (it has to be passed by referndum in several countries).

Tony said at November 27, 2006 1:30 PM:

One question - can anyone answer it? HOW ARE ALL OF THESE MUSLIMS GETTING INTO THE USA? Are they visitors, illegals, legitimate workers, 'refugees'???? I have in mind people like the Minnestoa taxi drivers. Are you guys stuck with them? In Eurabia of course we are - and we deserve it for our blindness

Bob Badour said at November 27, 2006 5:00 PM:
example, a Protestant group in Istanbul has for the first time been allowed to open a church.

I really find it illuminating to consider what would happen if we should expect of muslims what their religious texts expect of us. For example, the Qur'an states that anything that limits a muslim's ability to worship is grounds for war. "Oppression is worse than murder" etc.

If we held Islamic countries' treatment of non-muslims to the standard of treatment they expect us to give to muslims, we would have to kill them all.

Randall Parker said at November 27, 2006 6:24 PM:

Dave,

I meant to say the Byzantines, not the Ottomans. Thanks for pointing out the mistake. I corrected it.

Fred,

The EU membership bid as a tool to weaken the secular military: Wow, that makes sense.

You are very knowledgeable about the internal workings of Turkey's society.

Wolf-Dog said at November 27, 2006 9:12 PM:

One question - can anyone answer it? HOW ARE ALL OF THESE MUSLIMS GETTING INTO THE USA? Are they visitors, illegals, legitimate workers, 'refugees'???? I have in mind people like the Minnestoa taxi drivers. Are you guys stuck with them? In Eurabia of course we are - and we deserve it for our blindness
-----------------------------------------------------------

To answer this question above, I have found the following web site that analyzes the distribution of Muslims in the United States. Apparently, of the 5 million Muslims in the US, less than 1 million are Arabs and Iranians combined, and at least 2 million are African Americans. Additionally, like you speculated, the overwhelming majority of the Iranians in the United States are the pro-American seculars who became refugees after the Shah was overthrown. Probably most Arabs in the United States, are Christians who immigrated here. In any case, due to geographic reasons, as well as the immigration policies, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the United States are secular, and their level of education is much higher than the Muslim immigrants of Europe, who were imported originally only for cheap labor, and that group is not the same as the ones in the United States. But having said that, the small percentage of radicals among the American Muslims, are still dangerous, since weapons of mass destructions will gradually become more available, and even a few hundreds of radical Al Qaeda members in America, can one day totally destroy the US if they can smuggle futuristic weapons. This is one reason the war is very global, and closing the borders will be helpful only partially.


http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html

U.S. Muslim Population Table
Ethnic Grouping Population 1000 (1990) Percent of Total Muslim Population Definition of Terms
African-
American 2,100 42.0
bullet African-Americans: Those persons of African descent native to the United States of America.
South Asians 1,220 24.4
bullet South-Asians: Those of Indian/Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, or Afghan descent now residing in the United States as citizens or permanent residents.
Arabs 620 12.4
bullet Arabs: People from Arabic-speaking countries of the Middle East and North Africa who are permanent residents or citizens of the United States.
Africans 260 5.2
bullet Africans: People from the African continent who are citizens or permanent residents of the United States
Iranians 180 3.6
bullet Iranians: People of Persian descent, usually from Iran, who are citizens or permanent residents.
Turks 120 2.4
bullet Turkish: People of Turkish descent who are citizens ro permanent residents.
South East Asians 100 2.0
bullet South East Asians: People of Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Indochina, or the Phillippines.
American Whites 80 1.6
bullet American Whites: Those of West European descent, who are native to the United States.
East Europeans 40 0.8
bullet East Europeans: People from various regions of Eastern Europe.
Other 280 5.6
bullet Other: All other groups.
Totals 5,000 100
Geographical Distribution: The table below represents a breakdown by states of the largest Muslim communities in the United States. It shows that there are an estimated 3.3. million Muslims in these states. The figure represents 62 percent of the estimated 5 million Muslims living in the United States.
Muslim State Population Table
State Muslim Population
(1,000) Percentage Total Muslim Population Percent of Total State Population
California 1,000 20.0 3.4
New York 800 16.0 4.7
Illinois 420 8.4 3.6
New Jersey 200 4.0 2.5
Indiana 180 3.6 3.2
Michigan 170 3.4 1.8
Virginia 150 3.0 2.4
Texas 140 2.8 0.7
Ohio 130 2.6 1.2
Maryland 70 1.4 1.4

Fred said at November 28, 2006 6:34 AM:

Thanks, Randall.

Since 2003, I've lived in Turkey, so of course I have a lot of access to the local atmosphere.

Borat said at November 28, 2006 6:34 AM:

"After meeting him, Erdogan said that the pope had said that he supported Turkey's bid to join the European Union. Before becoming pope last year, Benedict had said Turkey's Muslim religion meant it did not belong in the EU.

CNN's Alessio Vinci, who travelled with the pope from Rome, said this was "very significant.""

from cnn.com

Tony said at November 28, 2006 8:54 AM:

Thanks Wolf-Dog - a very enlightening response. Based on that it's a totally different profile to that of Europe. But for som many so-called secularists, arent they making an awful lot of noise? Again,I'd love to know where those Minnesota taxi drivers came from.

Also, to see the religion of peace in action check out

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm#video

tommy said at November 28, 2006 6:10 PM:

I hope you aren't trying to "insult Turkishness" with your comments, Mr. Parker. That is a serious offense in some (EU-aspiring) countries...

Randall Parker said at November 28, 2006 7:15 PM:

Tommy,

Fortunately I am still protected by the US constitution's first amendment speech protection.

Wolf-Dog said at November 29, 2006 12:24 AM:

"Fortunately I am still protected by the US constitution's first amendment speech protection."
Posted by Randall Parker at November 28, 2006 07:15 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrong. Very wrong...

The Constitution of the United States can only protect your right to free speech, but it
does not guarantee your survival...

For instance, the former KGB operative Alexander Litvinenko was already a naturalized British citizen, and the UK Constitution certainly protected his right to free speech, but unfortunately failed to protect his life from the assassins who decided to terminate his existence.

You can read the latest update on how the Polonium-210 was used by the assassins at the BBC site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6190144.stm

No-PC-wars said at November 29, 2006 11:35 AM:

Wolf-Dog:
"UK Constitution certainly protected his right to free speech"

UK does not have constitution.

No-PC-wars said at November 29, 2006 11:55 AM:

Wolf-Dog:
"due to geographic reasons, as well as the immigration policies, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the United States are secular, and their level of education is much higher than the Muslim immigrants of Europe, who were imported originally only for cheap labor, and that group is not the same as the ones in the United States. "

It is nice to know that pieces of Open-Border propaganda makes it even to this restrictionist site.

1. What are geographic reasons that make Muslim immigrants here different?

2. What US immigration policies that make Muselms immigrants here different? Absolute majority recent immigrants
come under family reunification clause. Outside of family relationship (easily faked), there is NO qualifications requirements for family reunification. One can easily import his paralized, retarded, totally illiterate young brother who will consume millions in taxpayer paid services during his lifetime.

3. Any data supporting assertion that recent (last 20 years) immigrants have high education level? I bet their education level is way below that of native US whites.

4. Hamas and Hizbullah have thousands (judging from PUBLIC demonstration of support) supporters in Dearborn area. They are less visible in other area strickly because lukily there are not that many Muslims there. Hizbullah killed 300 hundred Marines in 1982.

It is a delusion to hope that Muslims in USA are somehow different from Euro-Muslems. We may have fewer problems with them now because their portion of population is so small, Dearborn excluded. To see what will happen when your fellow Open-Borders will let in a few more millions Muslems, see doings in Dearborn. Debbie Schlussel, an Arabic speaker, does a lot of under-cover reporting on Religion of Beheading activities in Michigan. See www.debbieschlussel.com.

Farbot Nia said at August 27, 2013 12:53 AM:

That's why we Angels and Angelas of cosmic 9s (VIA9s.1.1819.18.19.4,9.69.99) are here in this universe! We are the dean of our rings and we are here to fuck with IR.S and TR.S throughout milky way and andromada galaxies + Virgo cluster as Virgo and Deans!


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