2005 November 02 Wednesday
Muslim Riots Continue In Paris France Suburbs
French Muslim youths who blame the French police for the deaths of a couple of deaths of two of their number continued rioting for the sixth straight night as the riots spread to additional areas.
Dozens of vehicles and garbage cans were set on fire as youth gangs and police clashed for a sixth night in poor suburbs ringing the eastern side of Paris.
Hundreds of police patrolled Clichy-sous-Bois, where the riots broke out, after two teenagers of African origin were electrocuted and a third critically injured while reportedly hiding from police within the walls of an electrical sub-station last Thursday. Police deny the allegation.
Check out some BBC pictures from the riots.
The natives do not want the French police in their areas.
He admits belonging to a group that is sometimes a bit "chaud" - meaning troublesome - a hint at the unrest of the past few days.
He describes the nightly presence of the CRS, the French riot police, as provocation.
"If they didn't come here, into our area, nothing would happen," he says. "If they come here it's to provoke us, so we provoke back."
How dare the police think they have a right to patrol a neighborhood during a riot. You'd think the police see themselves as legitimate enforcers of the law and that the police see the laws of their own society as applying to everyone.
How do you apply the law to rioters in a spirit of dialogue and respect?
"The law must be firmly applied and in a spirit of dialogue and respect," government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope quoted Chirac as telling the weekly cabinet meeting.
Apply the law in a spirit of dialogue? The "dialogue" has to get pretty physical with rioters. Imagine the French cops saying to rioters "I respectfully bash you to the ground and hope you will respectfully respond by staying down and groaning".
Cope is worried about an "escalation of disrespect".
"The absence of dialogue and escalation of disrespect would lead to a dangerous situation. There cannot be 'no-go' areas in the republic," Cope told reporters.
Too late Mr. Cope. France has had no-go areas dominated by north African Muslim Arabs for years.
France now has spokesmen for poorly behaved ethnic groups who defend the right of their groups to burn cars and riot without getting insulted in response.
Squabbling broke out within Villepin's government when Equal Opportunities Minister Azouz Begag openly criticised Sarkozy for calling the protesting youths "scum".
"I talk with real words," Sarkozy fired back in an interview in the daily Le Parisien. "When someone shoots at policemen, he's not just a 'youth', he's a lout, full stop."
Politicians in America are under tighter taboo rules about what can be spoken aloud than those in France. But the taboo enforcers are gathering strength in France as well.
Note that France has an "Equal Opportunities Minister" and that minister has a name that denotes a non-French origin. France, like Brazil, is in the process of implementing racial preferences to discriminate against whites and for other racial and ethnic groups. This will fail to improve performance of the lower performing groups just as it has failed in the United States.
When groups need preferences that's a sign that immigration policy should be adjusted to keep out those groups. The French like to argue their society is superior to American society in various ways. However, through immigration policy the French have now inflicted upon themselves higher crime, riots, no-go areas in cities, racial preferences, and religious conflict.
Also see my previous posts "Theodore Dalrymple on French Ghettoes", "Guy Milliere says France No Longer A Western Country", and "Muslim Veils, Marking Territory, Broken Windows".
I thought I read an article that said there were also Muslim riots in Denmark.
shocking Solution: build more transformers in the burbs
You are quite incorrect to claim that Muslims are rioting in this Parisian suburb.
I have heard two detailed NPR reports on these disturbances. In the first, neither the "M" word nor the "I" word was as much as breathed. The rioters are youths whose parents and grandparents came to France to rebuild the country after WW2. They are discriminated against, disaffected, angry, grievance-filled, disrespected, and upset.
The BBC photo show you link to exibits the same aversion to words-having-meaning.
In Eleanor Beardsley's report tonight, link here, it's more of the same. Except, whoops, somebody responded to the rioting by attacking a mosque. While irrelevant to the story, this somehow turned the angry, aggreived youths into very angry, very aggreived youths. Go figure.
Fortunately, I subscribe to a Tribune Co. newspaper, and thus know how to read between the lines.
"I thought I read an article that said there were also Muslim riots in Denmark."
Zero tolerance for rioters in Århus
02. nov. 2005 10.22 English Opdat.: 02. nov. 2005 11.22
Police in Århus have announced a zero tolerance policy over for the troublemakers who have been rampaging through a suburb of Århus during the weekend.
The area of Viby, just outside central Århus has witnessed a spate of riots all weekend with shop windows being smashed, a kindergarten burnt out and general violence occurring between mainly young people with immigrant backgrounds and the police.
The zero tolerance hard-line has met criticism from an expert in youth research. Susasne Branner Jespersen said that a zero tolerance stance only increases the hatred between the youths and police.
The Mayor of Århus Louise Gade dismissed the concerns of experts and said that a hard-line must be taken with these troublemakers so ordinary law-abiding citizens could feel safe in their homes.
The article that "AMac" links to is clearly whitewashing the issue. I have been to Europe and am well aware of the problems of immigration there. One of the fundamental problems is that much of Europe (especially France) has a very socialistic economy. The usual opportunities that immigrants avail themselves of here in the U.S., such as starting restaurants, stores, 7-11 franchises, and the like, are not available in France. To start a business in such European contries require many permits and wading through much bureaucracy, compared to the U.S. This is the reason why immigrants to Europe fester in the ghettos around major European cities.
Germany has a guest worker program. Many Turks (who tend to be more rational than most Arabs or North Africans) have taken advantage of this program rather sucessfully. Although they are not well culturally assimulated into German society (who can assimulate and become a German?), they have enough economic opportunity in the guest worker program that they do not feel the need to riot as they are doing in France.
The fundamental problem is that, Germany's guest worker program aside, socialist economies do not create the kind of entreprenureal opportunities that immigrants require to get ahead. Thus, a socialist economy that promotes lots of immigration is an automatic recipe for disaster.
We have many muslim immigrants in the U.S. Many of them are entreprenuers, just like the Chinese and Indians. As a consequence, they have mean incomes that are somewhat higher than the "white" mean and are, thus, reasonably content with their lives here and feel no need to riot.
There may be a problem with "un-assimulatable" islam in Europe. However, there is a much bigger economic problem in Europe.
I'm pretty sure AMac is being sarcastic.
When the tear gas canister rolled into the mosque and the crowd outside got mad I'm sure that they got mad because they felt sympathy for the Muslims, not because they are Muslims themselves. The crowd were probably all Christians who wanted to demonstrate their inter-faith solidarity with Muslims. So they rioted for the benefit of Muslims.
Even when muslim immigrants are successful economically and living comfortable middle class lives, their pampered children are prone to choosing islamist teachings at the local mosque. The absence of economic opportunity is not the primary problem. If basic needs are taken care of by the welfare state, lack of economic opportunity can be ignored, if there is something else to occupy a person's time. The primary problem is the cultural demise of the western world and the rushing in of fanatical Islam to fill the vacuum. Muslim youth from family of comfortable means are seduced by the absolutism of fanatical muslim teachings. Like many earnest youth they want to make a difference. They want to be relevant.
My preference for dealing with the problem is to invent a new addictive drug that turns violent fanatics into peaceful, inward looking couch potatoes with a zero sperm count. Package it in pluggable air fresheners and install them in all the mosques. Smells good, kind of peaceful like.
The problem here is systematic appeasement of third world aggression. The policies of increasing intercommunal violence can only be deliberate. Officials long for dictatorial powers, but in some societies only extreme conditions, like civil war, allow for the implementation of such powers. The immigrants already have the privilege of opening businesses with less regulation than the majority is required to adhere to. Any positions given as appeasement of agggression, will tend to magnify the aggression. The only possibility for returning towards civilization in such circumstances is to start mass deportations and imprisonments.
John Bolton: If you start mass deportations and imprisonments in France, many of the ones who are imprisoned or deported will be native French citizens, because the younger generation who are actually revolting, were born there (the older immigrants don't have the stamina to revolt with vigor.) This means stripping native French citizens of their citizenship. This is very difficult. I am not saying that the Europeans are incapable of deporting 6 million citizens from their territory, because they did that before, but what I am saying to you is that this will NOT be a solution, and civilizatin will not be restored by such measures, because the war will escalate to nuclear proportions in the future... You are opening Pandora's box, and so you must also elaborate more about what will happen later.
It is not because of the love of the Jews that the European governments strongly condemned the statements made by the president of Iran, but due to the fact that somehow the Europeans started to worry about themselves.
You mean like China nuked Indonesia, or Vietnam, or India bombed Uganda? What I mean is that France imprisons and deports far too few who are below standard. The rioters appear to be largely African and Moslem refugees, who are there merely on sufferance. There is no right to parasitically migrate across the boundaries of sovereign countries. I don't believe that any country has ever used extraordinary weapons in reponse to its former citizens being returned to them, or suffering a rate of imprisonment that those who want freedom for aggression, would complain of.
Invisibly Scientist: What's with the assumption that a person born in a country automatically becomes a citizen of that country? Where'd you get that? Better watch out for assumptions like that.
Boltin: Too late to deport them. They've established squatters' rights. In Denmark they tell the cops to stay out because it's their land now, not the Danes' land anymore.
I wonder when they will start extorting money from the Danes to keep from rioting and killing and stuff. Gives a whole new meaning to the term 'danegeld', eh?
Your excellent analogy of the European political class's attitude to mass non-White immigration, and the famous Monty python sketch about "banging oneself on the head", is about as close as one can actually get to a rational explanation of the sheer insanity of the Euro-political elites.
Brussels Journal has some interesting comments and links on the situation in France and elsewhere(http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/429). Nice features include police no-go areas where Muslims enforce their own laws and police not eating or drinking in public during Ramadan. The gradual disintegration of Western Europe is beginning to accelerate. Just as European economic policies of the last 50 years have produced double-digit unemployment and 1% annual growth rates, so European multiculuralism and immigration policies have produced thus sorry mess. I used to find French smugness infurating, but now it's just amusing. Their economy is in the toilet, their capital is being taken over by a bunch of non-European barbarians, the government appears paralyzed, what do they have to smile about? Ah yes, le vin is still delightful - until the Muslims ban it! And don't forget how beautiful Paris is during Ramadan. Maybe the Muslim thugs will succeed where the home-grown European thug Hitler failed and finally burn Paris to the ground.
You may be right about AMac.
Anyways, these riots are getting so out of control that even the mainstreme media has begun to recognize them. There is more coverage on CNN.
Kurt (Nov 2, 4:58pm),
Randall is correct, I was attempting sarcasm in an earlier comment (Nov 2, 3:32pm). Often, it does not come across as intended; my apologies.
As I listened to NPR correspondent Beardsley's accounts, and her follow-up one this morning, I could imagine her straining to use only non-descriptive and non-judgemental adjectives to characterize the rioters.
It's hard to celebrate the multicultural diversity of hate-filled Muslim hooligans beating up firemen as they burn their neighborhood--but tax-dollar-subsidized Eleanor Beardsley is up to the challenge!
The US press has ignored this story. I saw it on Google News and finally got around to posting on it after 6 days and I found few US newspaper articles about it. It is an uncomfortable story for multi-culti liberals on a few scores: IQ, Islam, and immigration. ,
The French are quite busy with their "Getting hit on the head lessons" and so are the Danes apparently. Well, I admire their desire to learn. I only wish they'd choose to learn different lessons than the one's they've chosen.
Post-nationalists need to wake up and smell the burning cars.
The Mainstream press is finally covering the Paris riots. There is now much more on CNN (both telly and online) and in the papers. Fox News is having extensive coverage of it. Of course, FoxNews is that yukky conservative news channel that no self-respecting liberal would ever listen to (my gawd! The've even got Bill O'rielly on Fox News!).
The French have spent the last 30 years creating this problem and now they reap the results of it.
I have come to the conclusion that PC liberalism is doomed. I think this because the PC liberals (in both the U.S. and Europe) are now selling out their progressive values (gender equality, gay rights, etc.) in favor of multiculturalism. They are discovering that multiculturalism and "progressive" values are mutually incompatible and have chosen the former over the latter. If they had chosen the latter over the former, I think they would possibly have a chance. Since they haven't, they have zero chance of being an effective influence in the long-term future.
I believe that "northern" (that is, Western and East Asian) cultures are inherently superior to "southern" culture. This is the reason why I am in favor of Asian (Chinese, Korean, etc.) immigration, but not Latin American immigration. Unfortunately for us, our fearless leader seems to prefer the latter over the former.
Don't be so 3 dimensional. You are oversimplifying the problem by ignoring the time factor.
While Europe was in the Ice Age, some of the "southern" cultures were considerably more advanced.
And 500 years ago, the "superior" European inquisition was brutally oppressing and torturing, burning people in such a way that at that time the Arabs were slightly better. More recently, the brutality of Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia, made the Muslims look like Mother Theresa at that time...
(Yes, it's really better to watch these nice discussion from a safe distance, and only casually.)
Riots be spreading to twenny cities in le France and too in other europ countrys. This not be making sense with France opposing war in Iraq. Muslims be attacking trains and such. Like organized gangs or insurrect.
You don't actually think they care about Iraq, do you? Or Palestine for that matter? Those places are the past, Europe is Islam's future. That is where they must act, with violence if necessary to bring about their will.
After these events, I suppose, the Front National will become the biggest party in France.
"The political platform of the Front National is mainly focused on the control of immigration, the repatriation of illegal immigrants and the priority of French citizens over foreigners for access to jobs and social services: in a standardized pamphlet delivered to all French electors in the 1995 presidential election, Jean-Marie Le Pen proposed the 'sending back' of 'three million non-Europeans' out of France, by 'humane and dignified means'. However, in the campaign for the 2002 French presidential election, the stress was more on issues of law and order – one of the recurrent themes of the National Front is tougher law enforcement and higher sentences for crimes, and the reinstatement of the death penalty."
Home Video Clip of Paris Police Shooting in Suburbs?
IF the greenhouse effect really exists, and IF the climate change makes the Middle East even more dry than it already is, then the chances are very high that the resulting famine and misery will force the Muslims to ask Europe to accept them en masse, by force if necessary. The coming few years will be critical, because if the average temperature by only a few more degrees during the next few years, then most of the Muslim lands will become uninhabitable.
In the really hot places of earth they go underground. Even in the hottest summer, the heat does not penetrate deeply underground. Perhaps part of the population will try to emigrate northward, and the rest either die or go subterranean. Then after the sun cycle cools down again, those who moved away will try to take back their former lands. Will the "moles" let them return? Interesting.
That would almost sound vaguely sensible, until one recalls that ocean transport of staples has been developed. As far as the power of starving people goes, or the moral force of their suffering and failure extends, how is that many millions dieeach year of preventable causes in Africa today? If people could feel that it was really their moral responsibility to take care of, and multiply, failure; how is that no convincing argument has ever been made for such feelings? If proof could be given, and the circumstances altogether dire, proof would be given, that it is the duty of success to multiply failure.
The ongoing riots in France and much of Europe point to a worldwide problem of too many stupid people. Who are the rioters? Immigrants from north africa and subsaharan africa. What is happening in their countries of origin? Nothing good or they would not have emigrated away. When the people are stupid and multiply in numbers, obviously there will develop an excess of stupid people. They will happily riot in any locale where they are given free medical care, free housing, free spending money, and a lot of time to discuss rioting methods, and invent reasons to riot in the first place.
The rationale they give for rioting is fictitious. They riot because they are stupid. Electrocuted boys? Men and boys get electrocuted regularly without riots taking place in other places. Poverty? The world is covered with poverty, but riots of this type occur in specific places. Unemployment. Ditto.
I did ignore the time factor in my analysis. Perhaps I shouldn't. I was thinking more along the lines of Amy Chua's "market" and "non-market" people. Westerners and East Asians are clearly market people. Some Indians and the Lebanese Arabs are "market" people as well. The Latin Americans, non-Lebanese Arabs, and most of the rest of the southern world are clearly non-market people. I believe it to be a very serious mistake to allow a large percentage of the U.S. population to be comprised of non-market people. This is detrimental to the long term prosperity and well-being of our country.
Invisible Scientist writes:
If you start mass deportations and imprisonments in France, many of the ones who are imprisoned or deported will be native French citizens, because the younger generation who are actually revolting, were born there (the older immigrants don't have the stamina to revolt with vigor.) This means stripping native French citizens of their citizenship.
Those in open revolt, or who identify or train their children to identify as "Muslim" rather than "French", have indisputably given up allegiance to France. Stripping them of citizenship is reasonable, if not legally simple; putting them on airplanes to their ancestral homes is justified.
If the ancestral nation won't give landing rights, you put them into rubber boats just outside national waters and let them paddle their own way in. If these people are sufficiently violent (I think those who torch crippled people qualify) I don't think the native French would have too many qualms.
you fools, the rioters are children of immigrants from the Algerian War for Independence. They came to France either because they were sent to concentration camps and were not able to return home, or they moved to france to get away from the violence
Muslims are rioting in Sweden too.
Take a look
A short Swedish news bit about the weeks of continuous riots in Muslim areas of Sweden, specifically Gothenburg.
Islam: What the west needs to know (total over 60 min)
France and Africa
Obadiah Mailafia | May 30, 2010
France and Africa
Obadiah Mailafia | May 30, 2010