2004 July 26 Monday
Steve Sailer On Latin America as Cul-de-sac of Human Creativity

Steve Sailer took the data from Charles Murray's book Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 and sorted out the accomplishments made by Latin Americans and Spaniards in the sciences and arts. What Steve found is that Latin America is the Cul-de-sac of human creativity.

None of the 1,414 scientists who made the cut was a Latin American. That's not too surprising because the mother country, Spain, contributed only four scientists … and even one of those four was the medieval Muslim astronomer Al-Zarqali!

Latin America did a little better in the sphere of high culture, accounting for 18 (or 0.9%) of the 1,990 top artists, composers, writers, and philosophers in the history of Western Civilization. (I'm including among the Latin Americans the only Brazilian in the database, composer Villa-Lobos).

Spain has given the world a fair-to-middling 65 cultural creators—3.3% of all significant figures in the history of Western arts and philosophy. But Spain has been in a bit of a creative slump since its brilliant Golden Age of roughly 1550 to about 1660. There have been only 25 Spanish key creators since 1700. In contrast, the small country of the Netherlands developed 46 significant figures just during the 17th Century.

Steve says there is an obvious lesson here for the debate on US immigration policy.

Nonetheless, the bottom line: Latin America has been the least creative outpost of the West. And that probably won't change much.

America is unlikely to find many creative geniuses among Hispanic immigrants—especially among illegal ones.

One of the big surprises of the last 10 to 15 years is just how little impact Latin American immigrants have made even on popular culture. Blacks are still far far more influential in music, movies, and other aspects of popular culture. Look at comedians. There are more popular black comedians even though there are now more Hispanics than blacks in the United States.

Low overall Hispanic high school graduation rates (which are still lower for Hispanic men) into the 3rd and 4th generation descendants of Hispanic immigrants argue for a continued low level of scientific and technical accomplishment among Hispanics even in the United States.

Share |      By Randall Parker at 2004 July 26 12:31 PM  Immigration Societal Decay


Comments
Ignacio said at July 26, 2004 1:18 PM:

Before anything else, yes, I am from Spain.

I think comparing Spaniards to Hispanics just beacause they speak the same language is as smart as comparing english-speaking Mexicans with North Americans or Canadians. Not very smart. For one, Spain is not even near Central or South America, but Europe. For another, they (we) don't even share the same ethnicity.

Regarding education levels in high school, I can say with certainty that the education level of a high school graduate in Spain is much higher than a high school graduate in the US. In fact, Americans studying in Spain during high school are not tested with the same exams as everybody else, but an easier version.

I went through high school in Spain, and then received a BS in Aerospace from Saint Louis University and two Masters of Engineering from the Aerospace department of University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. My class was a total of 2 for one of the Masters (1 American, 1 Spaniard -me-) and 5 for the other Master (2 Americans, 3 Spaniards). As a side note, I'd like to mention that The Boeing Research and Technology Center opened in 2002 in Madrid, Spain. There is probably a reason why it opened there and not in, lets say, Arizona. And cheaper real estate is definitely not the reason.

Lastly, there is two things to Arts and Sciences, more particularly to Arts than Sciences these days. First, is what you accomplish. Second, who does the PR job. I mean, for crying outloud, the only thing most North Americans know about Spanish music is Flamingo* and "La Macarena"...


* Flamenco, mispelled on purpose because I hear it like that all the time.

noone said at July 26, 2004 2:03 PM:

Latin America has been the least creative and successfull branch of Western Civilization.
Many of us oppose uncontrolled immigration from there because of the concern that a latinized America will not only *look* more like Latin America,but will begin to *behave* more like Latin America culturally,politically,socially and economically.

America has achieved incredible success in a vast number of areas since it's independence.Latin America in roughly the same time frame has persistently wallowed in economic poverty,cultural and social stagnation and feudal oligarchy or military fascism enlivened by the occasional homicidal marxist movement.

Why do we want to be like them?

Cheap labor or ideological purity are not acceptable defences of our current (lack of) rational immigration control.

Kurt said at July 26, 2004 2:22 PM:

From what I understand, Spain is going through a bit of an economic renaissance since the mid 90's. They have lower tax rates and a more free-market economy than Northern Europe (and probably more entrepreneurs as well). The Spanish government seems to practicing more rational fiscal policy than the Northern European governments. I do know that Japanese companies like to set up their European operations in Spain for this, warm climate, and because the Spanish are a decent people. The problem with Spain is that they languished under the heavy hand of Franoism ,until he died in '75, and have had alot of catching up to do. From what I have heard, they are doing this rather impressively.

Ironically, the Spanish people that I have met look more like typical Americans than any other Europeans that I have met. (except for the pacific Northwest where we tend to be "good germans").


Nevertheless, Steve Sailer's comments about Latin America are quite right. As I have mentioned on another blog, the people in our country that are least able to cope with techno-economic change are those on the left side of the bell curve. Allowing lots and lots of illegal cheap labor into the country is no way to help these people.

lindenen said at July 26, 2004 4:03 PM:

"For another, they (we) don't even share the same ethnicity."

Yes, you do. Not totally but the elites in LA are European, primarily Spanish.

John S Bolton said at July 26, 2004 8:52 PM:

This answers the question of whether there might be, among the tens of millions, someone who would find that which might pay for all the others. Does the egalitarian gamble intelligently, with his indiscriminate recruitment approach? Top universities don't use lotteries for admission, yet their professors tell us that it would be ideal to use lottery-type recruitment approaches everywhere. Latin America is almost indistinguishable from the world average, in terms of IQ, so that recruitment from their average is like the ivy league using an admissions lottery. They are also in no position to say that they have inadequate land or resources, which are superabundant there.

Ignacio said at July 27, 2004 8:25 AM:

lindenen,

No, we ain't.

Fact 1: Hispanic race is the mix between Europeans and the natives from Central and South America. They were mostly from Spain, but a good portion was also British, French, Portuguese and Italian.

Fact 2: "People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race. Thus, the percent Hispanic should not be added to percentages for racial categories." - This is taken from the US Census Website

Question: Spain's ethnicity is about the same as Italy (mix of Mediterranean and Nordic). Would you call them Hispanic too?

noone said at July 27, 2004 12:08 PM:

"Fact 1: Hispanic race is the mix between Europeans and the natives from Central and South America. They were mostly from Spain, but a good portion was also British, French, Portuguese and Italian."

Mestizos are euro/native mix.

Hispanic is a catchall phrase,Latin America is composed for the most part of 3 groups,Euros,mestizos and indians.About 10% of Mexicans are considered "Euro",about 5% indian IIRC and the rest mestizos.

Argentina's population is about 90% "Euro",the country had considerable immigration from Europe just before and after WW1,similiar to our own and has long billed itself as the most european country in Latin america.

Fact 2: "People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race. Thus, the percent Hispanic should not be added to percentages for racial categories." - This is taken from the US Census Website

Ironicaly,people from Spain are considered White European by the US for purposes of group idenity and entitlement.

Latino Pundit said at July 27, 2004 5:41 PM:

I am still waiting for the point of the whole post. The folly of measuring the 'worth' of a people based on their scientific or Arts or any other field based on another's standard of judgement - especially arts - is self evident. It is void of feeling and soul.

I am always amused by a small mind that looks down on others and judges and categorizes them based on some self whipped up recipe of human worth. Are you joking us? Pick up your pants sir, your A** is showing.

Fly said at July 27, 2004 6:34 PM:

Latino Pundit: “The folly of measuring the 'worth' of a people based on their scientific or Arts or any other field based on another's standard of judgment - especially arts - is self evident. It is void of feeling and soul.”

Hear, hear. Let’s not value living creatures by their ability to learn, create, and discover. The fact that an animal can live, feel, and breed entitles that animal to our respect.

Where is your feeling and soul? Treat all animals equally. Respect all animals equally.
In fact, why should we promote human culture over animal culture? Shouldn’t we give up language?

Bark, bark, yip, yip.


Latino Pundit, I value and respect human life because I value human thinking over animal breathing. That same respect means I value high quality thought and accomplishment over mere existence.

That respect for discovery and accomplishment means I value the culture and people of the US more than I do the culture and people of Mexico. A US that becomes more like Mexico is a poorer US.

I believe the US can benefit from cultural imports and immigration. But those imports and immigrants must prove their value. They don’t get my acceptance and respect by default.

If you believe Latino culture is better and so the US should welcome massive immigration, then prove it.

Kurt said at July 27, 2004 10:26 PM:

The difference between sentience and animalism is based on achievement. Sentient beings engage in positive accomplishment and endevours, animals do not.

LP said at July 28, 2004 5:34 AM:

FLY, Only an ignorant and low self esteemed person would make such a comparison...

LatinoPundit said at July 28, 2004 5:36 AM:

on second thought reading your post again I relaize only a racists fool (which is obviously abundant on this site)would make such conclusions. Wisdom and understanding is not found here.

LatinoPundit said at July 28, 2004 5:38 AM:

on second thought reading your post again I relaize only a racists fool (which is obviously abundant on this site)would make such conclusions. Wisdom and understanding is not found here. Why cast pearls to swine?

John S Bolton said at July 28, 2004 7:49 PM:

Resorting to ad hominem makes it look as if your side has no rational argument available to it. It would be better to mention painters and muralists and perhaps some literary figures.

LatinoPundit said at July 29, 2004 6:40 PM:

Bro, are you dense? This is not the way to measure the worth of people. Guess the tin man truly has no heart.

Maybe this is why it is ironicly true that 'some civilizations' or people always destroyed aboriginal and natives; whatever lied in their paths they destroyed...

andursonne said at July 29, 2004 8:53 PM:

haha Good luck finding "some civilizations" who haven't at some point in their history destroyed aboriginals and natives.

LatinoPundit still hasn't answered Bolton's question.

Randall Parker said at July 29, 2004 9:09 PM:

LatinoPundit opines:

I am still waiting for the point of the whole post. The folly of measuring the 'worth' of a people based on their scientific or Arts or any other field based on another's standard of judgement - especially arts - is self evident. It is void of feeling and soul.

Devoid of feeling and soul? Then all the scientists who place a very high value on scientific discovery are soulless? Not sufficiently Latin for your tastes?

If a group does poorly in sciences and arts I certainly can understand why they wouldn't want to see others use achievement in sciences and arts as a standard for comparing and judging groups. But if we do not place a higher value on scientific achievement we are likely to have far less of it. Would that be a good or bad outcome? I say bad. What do you say LatinoPundit?

Whatever causes Latin America to do poorly in sciences, technology, arts, or for that matter, governance is something that I do not want here in the United States. Whether the cause is genetic or cultural or a combination thereof I do not want it here in the United States of America. I do not want low levels of educational achievement. I do not want low levels of scientific or technological achievement. Also, given a choice between living in a society that produces more great lasting art works and one that does not produce much I strongly prefer the former to the latter.

There are differences between different human groups that cause drastically different levels of achievement. A comparison of Latin America and the United States makes that obvious enough. I do not want to see the United States become more like Latin America. I judge Latin America and find it incredibly deficient by my standards. If Latin Americans therefore judge me as soulless and unfeeling I just do not care. I care about the USA, not their civilization.

John S Bolton said at July 29, 2004 9:17 PM:

It makes a population look weak and incapable, if its spokesmen feel obliged to deny the possibility of standards, such as can be used for comparison. Anti-merit activists pleading for there to be no measures of merit, and in the name of a population which uses anti-merit policies for advancement, make that group look distinctly lacking in merit. Look at the consistency of this anti-racism and hostility to prejudice, which says our:'people always destroyed aboriginal and natives'. Apparently, 'aboriginal' needs to kill civilization, or be destroyed by the inexorable racial-cultural juggernaut. Yet if these are the rules of engagement, then there would seem to be no moral principle by which 'aboriginal' could complain about those, before whom: 'whatever lied in their paths they destroyed', whether they did so deliberately, or not.

gc said at July 30, 2004 12:58 AM:

judges and categorizes them based on some self whipped up recipe of human worth.

I relaize only a racists fool... 'some civilizations' or people always destroyed aboriginal and natives

It seems to me that you have your own recipe of human worth. Namely, you believe only those who have been "oppressed" are deemed worthy. Likewise, you probably believe it's unfair for someone to bring up the statistical profile of Hispanics re: education, employment, income, or crime...unless we're using it to condemn America for "failing" Hispanics. Somehow, I don't hear the Vietnamese immigrants saying anything like that - perhaps because they made it without racial preferences.

(By the way, your grammar is atrocious.)

Kurt said at July 30, 2004 1:26 PM:

"LatinoPundit" makes is very clear why people of his mentality cannot be allowed to a part of Western or East Asian civilization, if we are to remain an advancing technological civilization. As to the accusation be being a racist, I will have you know that I have lived nearly half of my adult life in various East Asian countries (Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia) and have worked mostly for Asian employers. I have mostly high respect for the various Asian cultures and my wife is Japanese (I am a while male). I have alos had the pleasure to work with people of almost every religion on the planet (Sikh, Bahai, Moslim, Buddhist, etc.). To suggest that I am a racist only shows the ignorance of the parasitical, "entitletement" culture of the person making the claim.

Why is it that Chinese and Vietnamese, whose languages are so completely different from English, can learn English and speak it so well (in fact, better than many indigenous people in the states), whereas many speakers of Spanish (which is much more similar to English) fail to do so?

Pray Tell.....

gbloco said at August 2, 2004 2:12 AM:

College gradutation rates for immigrants from the following countries in Latin America:

Brazil 38.8%
Argentina 38.7%
Costa Rica 31.3%
Colombia 29.4%
Nicaragua 23.8%

Mexico 9.3%

All immigrants 24.5%
Natives 23.0%

Don't tar the whole of Latin America with the Mexican brush. Look at these figures:

Rough estimates for average caucasian mix:
Argentina 85%-90%
Brazil 60%-65%
Colombia 55%-60%
Mexico 25%-30%

Randall Parker said at August 2, 2004 8:48 AM:

gbloco,

What is the source for your numbers?

John S Bolton said at August 3, 2004 12:19 AM:

In terms of scientific publications per million, Latin America is at a level similar to Africa, the middle east, and tropical regions in general. Several countries in Europe are at a thousand times the level of several countries south of the border (Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia, for example), on this indicator. What a crime against civilization it would be to move towards the Latin American level of scientific publication. Already, several countries in Europe have moved far beyond us, on this indicator. The information above is from Perez-Iratxeta and Andrade, on page 519 of the 7-26-02 issue of Science.

John S Bolton said at August 6, 2004 12:36 AM:

Similarly, reading from the map in the Science article mentioned just above; all of Latin America appears not to publish any more scientific articles than Switzerland. The Monroe doctrine, by preventing Lat. Am. from reverting to the power of Europe, and thus missing colonization from other parts of Europe than what they did get, may have been one of the most serious setbacks for the progress of civilization in history.

greg johnson said at September 23, 2004 12:54 PM:

Do u guys know where Spain is? It's in bloody Europe! People over there are 100% white, and bear no similarities wt the latinos or hispanos.

Mateo's Apparition said at December 18, 2004 4:46 PM:

Does Steve Sailer even know that Spain is in Europe? Spain has nothing to do with America's immigration problems. Spain has done far more for the arts than the United States (Maestro Mateo, Velazquez, Goya, Picasso, Dali, Miro, Gaudi, etc., etc.)

Mateo's Apparition said at December 22, 2004 12:39 AM:

By the way, Murray did not include architecture in the inventories, when Spain has produced some of the greatest architecture in Europe. Spain may have even done better in architecture than in painting. An American pundit talking about a "cultural" Renaissance is a lot like a Zimbabwean government official talking about racial equality.

By the way, it's interesting that a Spaniard has responded here about how Americans (so advanced culturally!) mispronounce flamenco "flamingo." It just so happens that Murray misspelled the names of at least two Spaniards in his book (and prominent ones), and Steve Sailer misspelled the name of a Spanish painter in one of his articles. Just goes to show that reading a book like Murray's is no substitute for a scholarly reading of a nation's history.

Murray's book is actually not bad, but data can be presented in different ways depending on the biases of the people looking at it.

Omar E. Vega said at April 17, 2005 10:08 AM:

> Before anything else, yes, I am from Spain.

>I think comparing Spaniards to Hispanics just beacause they speak the same language is as smart as >comparing english-speaking Mexicans with North Americans or Canadians. Not very smart. For one, >Spain is not even near Central or South America, but Europe. For another, they (we) don't even >share the same ethnicity.

What an IGNORANT. It seems that Spanish education is been doing pretty bad lately! Perhaps is because so many moors live in Spain right now. Actually. Are you a MOOR or a native? :)

Hispanics are called like that because they SPEAK SPANISH. The same goes for the term Latin or Latino. It is because WE speak a Latin language. That stupid language of the Romans that the Spaniards like to think they invented. LOL !

Hispanics have Spanish blood (varying according the region, but not less than 60% is Spanish). But is not a blood WE care to much about. Actually, we have to import a lot of others people with the hope to clean a bit that dumb Spanish blood. If we are a little bit backward is because the Spaniards were backwards. Nobody else to blame!!!!

>Lastly, there is two things to Arts and Sciences, more particularly to Arts than Sciences these >days. First, is what you accomplish. Second, who does the PR job. I mean, for crying outloud, the >only thing most North Americans know about Spanish music is Flamingo* and "La Macarena"...
>* Flamenco, mispelled on purpose because I hear it like that all the time.

Flamenco is GYPSY!!! What a stupid civilization has been the one of Spain that can't even invent a decent party music :)

TO IGNACIO:

>Posted by: Ignacio on July 26, 2004 01:18 PM
>Latin America has been the least creative and successfull branch of Western Civilization.

Latin America is not a BRANCH of Western Civilization but a new hibrid CIVILIZATION by its own. It is a young people that is growing, and not only in numbers. We know that Western Civilization is declining and we are taking possitions to control it in the near future. The invasion of the U.S.A. and also of Spain -there are more Latin Americans in Spain than Moors- is not a casuality. These changes take LONG time but they will come. Chineses, Indians and Latin Americans, we are all working to take the control of the world. And we will DO!

>Many of us oppose uncontrolled immigration from there because of the concern that a latinized >America will not only *look* more like Latin America,but will begin to *behave* more like Latin >America culturally,politically,socially and economically.

You don't have anything to say about it. U.S.A. is becoming and it will be a LATIN country in the very near future.

>America has achieved incredible success in a vast number of areas since it's independence.Latin >America in roughly the same time frame has persistently wallowed in economic poverty,cultural and >social stagnation and feudal oligarchy or military fascism enlivened by the occasional homicidal >marxist movement.

You do not know Latin America!!! You don't know what we are really doing and why all of us think in the same way with respect to gringos and coños.

>Why do we want to be like them?

We give a shit of you, Spaniard -Coño mugriento mezcla de judio y moro-. We are 550 millions and you live in a piece of shit of a country with just 38 millions. There is no comparison. The center of the Hispanic world is not in Spain. Is in Miami !!!

>Cheap labor or ideological purity are not acceptable defences of our current (lack of) rational >immigration control.

What control? The migration officials of the U.S. are so corrupt they don't see the wetbacks crossing the frontier :)

to the last one said at May 24, 2005 5:33 PM:

Your name is arabic or moor, as you'd say (because of your lack of vocabulary, evidently). Well, there is not much to say, just that North America is the way it is just because European people who could not live in Europe because they were convicts or had any other problems with the law, went there to kill some indians and steal their land. The English crown gave them the land in exchange of killing the indians, which is a good origin for the murderers you are right now. On the other hand, it is true that you offer a lot of new technology and science (all devoted to war, of course). I just hope not everyone in your country is so simple (and I am sure it must be like that).

another thing i forgot said at May 24, 2005 5:43 PM:

Flamenco is not gypsy, you stupid, and it's obvious because there are gypsies all over the world and flamenco can be heard just in Spain. Besides, it's well established its origin, it's an evolution of a mixture of arabic music with christian music played in the south of Spain. Why don't you read a book or something? (maybe because 26 letters are too much for you) There are a lot of things out there you could learn instead of saying such piece of nonsense. It's shameful for your country to have people like you living there.

Psiweapon - reply to Omar E Vega said at May 24, 2005 8:40 PM:

>> Before anything else, yes, I am from Spain.

>>I think comparing Spaniards to Hispanics just beacause they speak the same language is as smart as >comparing english-speaking Mexicans with North Americans or Canadians. Not very smart. For one, >Spain is not even near Central or South America, but Europe. For another, they (we) don't even >share the same ethnicity.

>What an IGNORANT. It seems that Spanish education is been doing pretty bad lately! Perhaps is because so many moors live in Spain right now. Actually. Are you a MOOR or a native? :)

Or is it so because SO many south american inmigrants are coming now? Care to think about it? And got anything against moors? they don't really like us, so where's the whole "my enemy's enemy is my ally" thing? Btw, I don't think that education has anything to do with any kind of inmigrants: (inmigrants, as you should know, come because they need work, and if they need work, they are WORKING AND NOT STUDYING. And their children are just sarting to get into the schools. Education is not working properly because of stupid politics and management, statesmen and stateswomen of Spain have completely lost the sense of politics: making a state work.

>Hispanics are called like that because they SPEAK SPANISH. The same goes for the term Latin or Latino. It is because WE speak a Latin language. That stupid language of the Romans that the Spaniards like to think they invented. LOL !

Everybody freaking knows that the Romans lived here before us, and that Latin was their language. By the way, the word "Latin" comes from the region where the Roman civilization started, a place of the present Italy called Latium. And I think Latin America is so called because they were colonised mostly by Spain and Portugal, countries considered "latin" (together with Italy, the most "latin" of the three) because they keep more resemblance and references of the Romans than other countries with romanesque languages.

>Hispanics have Spanish blood (varying according the region, but not less than 60% is Spanish). But is not a blood WE care to much about. Actually, we have to import a lot of others people with the hope to clean a bit that dumb Spanish blood. If we are a little bit backward is because the Spaniards were backwards. Nobody else to blame!!!!

Yeah of course. So all the militarist dictators hadn't anything yo do with it, right? And when latin america was colonised, Spain wasn't backwards, Spain was cutting edge. For that age, at least. So what you're saying is just bleeping nonsense. Also, all the interfering that the USA did to prevent from consolidating every single leftist country in south America, has nothing to do with you being backwards.

>>Lastly, there is two things to Arts and Sciences, more particularly to Arts than Sciences these >days. First, is what you accomplish. Second, who does the PR job. I mean, for crying outloud, the >only thing most North Americans know about Spanish music is Flamingo* and "La Macarena"...
>>* Flamenco, mispelled on purpose because I hear it like that all the time.

>Flamenco is GYPSY!!! What a stupid civilization has been the one of Spain that can't even invent a decent party music :)

Pst! GYPSY is GITANO. The ethnicity. Spanish gypsies are flamencos, but that's a lifestyle. And I don't like flamenco very much, but that's an opinion and a blatantly invalid argument

>TO IGNACIO:

>>Posted by: Ignacio on July 26, 2004 01:18 PM
>>Latin America has been the least creative and successfull branch of Western Civilization.

>Latin America is not a BRANCH of Western Civilization but a new hibrid CIVILIZATION by its own. It is a young people that is growing, and not only in numbers. We know that Western Civilization is declining and we are taking possitions to control it in the near future. The invasion of the U.S.A. and also of Spain -there are more Latin Americans in Spain than Moors- is not a casuality. These changes take LONG time but they will come. Chineses, Indians and Latin Americans, we are all working to take the control of the world. And we will DO!

We have Roman, Greek, German, Iberian, Muslim, a bit of Jew, Celtic, Phoenician, Carthaginian and Tartessian ascendancy. So please, try to explain to us what is being "hybrid" again, I think we didn't get it right. Please.

>>Many of us oppose uncontrolled immigration from there because of the concern that a latinized >America will not only *look* more like Latin America,but will begin to *behave* more like Latin >America culturally,politically,socially and economically.

>You don't have anything to say about it. U.S.A. is becoming and it will be a LATIN country in the very near future.

Yeah, probably you're right, but of course it won't be pure latin american. It would be soething like Latin-Saxon-American.

>>America has achieved incredible success in a vast number of areas since it's independence.Latin >America in roughly the same time frame has persistently wallowed in economic poverty,cultural and >social stagnation and feudal oligarchy or military fascism enlivened by the occasional homicidal >marxist movement.

>You do not know Latin America!!! You don't know what we are really doing and why all of us think in the same way with respect to gringos and coños.

USA BLEEPING knows what you're doing. If you cared to collect what little information they let out, USA has been controlling, and sometimes halting, your development. If you think you're acting behind their backs, you're probably just a puppet.

>>Why do we want to be like them?

>We give a shit of you, Spaniard -Coño mugriento mezcla de judio y moro-. We are 550 millions and you live in a piece of shit of a country with just 38 millions. There is no comparison. The center of the Hispanic world is not in Spain. Is in Miami !!!

That guy was an USAn and was talking about people from the USA. Guess your flagwaving frenzy got you a little off track. Better aim next time, little cartel henchman.

>>Cheap labor or ideological purity are not acceptable defences of our current (lack of) rational >immigration control.

>What control? The migration officials of the U.S. are so corrupt they don't see the wetbacks crossing the frontier :)

You're right. Inmigration controls are sh*t. In the US and in Spain too. I'd rather have them letting inmigrants in that having them crossing the illegal way in.

>Posted by: Omar E. Vega on April 17, 2005 10:08 AM

Aw man! all this ranting and despising the Moors, and you just call yourself Omar?!?! You deserve to be made fun of. Seriously, you look just like another run-off-the-mill latin-power mafia wannabe, feed on gangsta rap. Woe unto you.

Y sobre mi, soy español, hablo inglés y se algo de latin, y "mezcla de judio y moro", pues en parte sí; pero "coño mugriento" el de tu puta madre. Espero que las bandas callejeras de latinos en españa se encuentren pronto con los cabezas rapadas, porque ambos son colectivos que solo merecen perecer miembro por miembro. Conozco a gente de latinoamérica y la mayorái me caen bien - pero gente como tú sois basura. Mucho poder latino, mi polla poder latino. sólo sabeis esnifar coca y mataros a navajazos. Pero no te preocupes, no pienso que lo hagais porque sois latinos. Pienso que lo haceis porque sois gilipollas, igual que lo hacen gilipollas gitanos, payos, moros o guiris, la gilipollez no conoce fronteras.

In English now:
And about me, I'm spanish, I speak english and a little bit of laitn, and "a mix of jew and moor" in part I am, but "dirty cunt", your bitch mother's one. I hope that street latino gangs in Spain meet soon with the skinheads, because both are collectives that only deserve to die member after member. I now people from latin america and I like most of them - but people like you are just trash. You say latin power, my dick latin power! You only know how to snort cocaine and cutthroat each other to death. But don't worry, I don't think you do that because you're latins. I think you do it because you're jerks, just as gipsy, white, moor or "guiri"(1) jerks do, bullshit knows no frontiers.

(1): guiri: Foreigner from America, France, Germany, UK or some other country more "german" than spain. Guiris are usually more blond-haired and blue-eyed than spaniards, and instead of getting tanned they get red. This is just a stereotype, though.

antoine said at September 12, 2005 5:21 AM:

" guiri: Foreigner from America, France, Germany, UK or some other country more "german" than spain. Guiris are usually more blond-haired and blue-eyed than spaniards, and instead of getting tanned they get red. This is just a stereotype, though. "


What is more "German" in France than in Spain ???!! PS : France is a latin country too.

Michael J said at October 9, 2005 11:09 PM:

As far as the Hispanics "Taking Over" as they like to say, It isn't because of any creative thinking or their supposed work ethic, Its because our past administrations of "White Guys" from LBJ on,(Don't forget Ted Kennedy, the second worst excuse for a politician in American History, after Bush that is, he's in a class by himself) who have sold us down the toilet for cheap labor and helping the rich get richer, while slowly screwing the middle class into a future of having to live and work day to day with this ignorant, hard-headed, and stupid beyond comprehension mass of Hispanic humanity. Reagans supreme immigration blunder in 1986 sealed Americas future fate by legalizing 3 million "illegals" and opening up the barn door for this invasion. So the conclusion is this, We should just secede the Southwest U.S to the Hispanics,and let them destroy that area lickety split to the level of their f'ed up country, build a wall around that area to keep them in (Kinda Like Escape from New York) and let their crime,disease, and stupidity eliminate them on their own. Their feeble minds will not search for a solution, but will probably rise to the level of trying to make a ladder to climb over "Whiteys Wall", so whitey can take care of their every need as they had in the past. But this time "Whitey" will have a President that actually posseses brain mass... like real leaders such as Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower, who would've previously sent these human leeches back in their holes with one foot still sticking out of their rears. So now, instead of keeping them out like were trying to, but failing to do now, we Keep them in. Brilliant!
P.S. To any Politicians looking for a winning platform to run on in '08 All you have to do is say 1.The borders will be closed and their will be a 10 year moratorium on ANY immigration.The Military will be positioned to repel any future attempts of entry, and this unbelievable free ride to American benefits will end. 2.All illegal aliens will be systematically removed from every city in the U.S. and sent back to their host country ,and bill that country for the cost(What you won't pay? then we won't import your junk any more and impose sanctions). 3.End the 14th amendment provision allowing citizenship for these lawbreakers children, and cease ALL benefits to non-citizens. 4. Fine the living shit out of American companies for hiring Illegals,(The main claim for the reason behind IRCA in 1986)and make them rehire LEGAL workers at a living wage.So what if the cost of goods go up, it won't even touch the cost we have to absorb now do to Illegal immigration.The lower skilled jobs will be filled by the millions of Legal immigrants already here and nationalized. Thats it, the secret weapon to win the presidency back and return it to the American people. Any takers?

Uu said at November 9, 2005 1:32 PM:

France is quite more germanic than Spain, just look at the language, French is a romance language with germanic influences.

Nuke Spain said at December 26, 2005 10:39 AM:

Spain's socio-cultural makeup can be compared to the crumbs that are left over at the bottom of a bag of stale bread. Its a useless hodgepoge of peoples who have an innate ability to overestimate themselves. The Moors did Spain a favor by taking over the country and subjugating it. The amount of time they dominated the Iberian peninsula is a testament to the weak nature of the Spanish. Proof positive is in the babble that Ignacio wrote about how smart he think he is. What is worse is he avoided the conversation theme, instead proceeding to do some America bashing. If it was up to me, I would allow 500 illegal immigrants into the country before him. At least they appreciate the American Dream and what it means to work for it- often putting their lives on the line in the process. Unlike this imbecile Ignacio who comes to this country for an education and then "flakes out". This is another one of the infinite examples of how dumb the Spanish are. If you want even more proof simply study the Colonial system in Latin America. But don't ask a Spaniard about it, because he will try to justify it as some kind of glorious event. Sending mercenaries and theives to populate other countries is their legacy in world history. If education in Spain is better, don't come to the U.S. to study-stay in your own country. In addition, if you hate the United States you are not wanted here.

It is obvious that Ignacio grew up in a closet. If you think that there is no correlation between Latin America and Spain based on distance, you must have been dropped on your head as a child. Yes, you are from Spain and have shown how ignorant you are just by writing a bunch of babble. My reccomendation to you is to first learn how to read and write in English-then try to comprehend the world around you. You might learn something-can anybody offer this close minded individual some history books he can read? Ignacio, you probably want to start with voice or large print books.

C.Klein

Carlos said at March 18, 2006 12:06 PM:

Nuke Spain said: " Spain's socio-cultural makeup can be compared to the crumbs that are left over at the bottom of a bag of stale bread. Its a useless hodgepoge of peoples who have an innate ability to overestimate themselves."..."This is another one of the infinite examples of how dumb the Spanish are. "

I don't believe that you know any spanish.

There is the same correlation between the old Castile and America that the relation between the roman empire and Europe. Europeans are not italians, in the same way that americans are not spanish and the indians form india, sudan, niger, egipt or south africa are not english. Other europenan countries, like england and france had also some small colonies in southamerica. But actual europeans aren't responsible of their scarce development, racial discrimination and lost of economic power after their independence. You can observe the statistics of southamerican development since 1800 to confirm that.

Nuke Spain said:" If you want even more proof simply study the Colonial system in Latin America. But don't ask a Spaniard about it, because he will try to justify it as some kind of glorious event. "

That's absolutely false. Colonial system is not justified in Spain in the same way that italians aren't proud of the slaverist system of the roman empire, or USA, France, Netherlands, Belgium, UK, Germany... aren't proud of their slaverist and genocidist colonial system. You must know that there is a black leyend of spanish colonization as a result of the rivalry between spain and england and some other countries in eourope in that period of time, and also because of the religious rivalry between protestantism and catolic church at that time. That leyend is used also by some southamerican governments to justify the poverty of their countries. If you wan't to learn something about spanish colonial system, it is imposible to do that with dates taken from a book writen by an english writer in the time were spain an england were enemies and catholic church and protestanstism were at war. For example. It's said that the spanish inquisition murdered thousands of indian americans. I don't justify the crimes of the inquisition, but it's absolutely false that it was used to kill indians. In all spanish america there were only less than 30 trails of the inquisition. And nearly all of them were against spanish or spanish descendent people in an important social position. In that black legend is said that all the indians that died in the years after the discovery were died by the spanish bloodthirst and cruelty, but it's known that nearly all of the indian americans died becouse of common european diseases. And it has no sense to say that spanish used biological war. You must know that more than a half of the spanish that went to america died in a sort period of time becouse of american or african diseases, and that in several times in eorope the population of some regions were divided by 10 because of diseases comming from asia. (It was still the middle ages). That leyend doesn't say that the little groups of spanish that defeated the american indigenous empires, were helped by a lot of the tribes subjugated by that bloodthirst american native empires. That leyend neither says that despite the abuses, the rights of the indians were better defended by spanish law (who didn't considered them inferior to other humans), than by the govenrments of the new born southamerican nations formed by spanish descendents who usually wanted more power at the cost of the indigenous territory and rights.

But I don't really know what do you want to say when you mention the spanish colonial system. Was it worse than the other european colonial systems? I think not.

On the other hand, there is a general ignorance in America about how spanish are. For example, all american films have sudamerican people playin spanish roles, and nearly always american films and literature represents Spain like any sudamerican underdeveloped country, (when in fact except for the language Spain is more similar to Canada than to other american country). (For example, spain has the second or third best public health care system of the world, and is the 10th country with better quality of life, above countries like USA, UK, or France, as you can see in the worldwide quality-of-life index 2005, made by The Economist Intelligence Unit.

One example: Few weeks ago I saw an american film called "face of terrorism". That film is filmed in Spain, but the two main actors playing spanish characteres aren't spanish, (I think they are sudamerican). They are the wealthy spanish man with the ponytail and the police girl, and they have that latino appearance that american think that spanish have. Other secundary roles are played by spanish, and so, you can view the diference between the real spanish and the appearence spanish are suposed to have.

Americans also have a mess about the spanish culture. It's obvious that most americans think that flamenco is the spanish traditional and folk music. That's not true. Flamenco is the music developed by the gipsys and other minorities in the souther region of spain. Gipsys are a ethnic group that live separatelly in all europe and middle east with their own rules and culture. Flamenco music is only played and danced by gipsys. Even the normal (not gipsy) people of that original souther region don't play or dance flamenco. You will never see a white person playing or dancing flamenco. And if you want to go to a flamenco show in Spain you can only find them in that southern region or sometimes in theaters of the biggest cities of Spain. And, so what is the spanish traditional music? Depends on the region. In the souther region maybe the guitar music, and in the north region are more traditional the bagpipes or the accordions, and there are olso other musics and traditional musical instruments in other regions, but you will never hear them in an american TV or radio program. If you only like music like "the macarena" or similar, the problem is your bad musical taste but there a lot of musical styles in spain. I'm not responsible of that ignorance and clich�s.

Something similar occurs with french. As we can observe in the films, (for example in "Master and Commander"), American people think most of french are dark haired and dark skinned. And some of the french americans know have paradoxically spanish origins. For example, the actors Jean Reno and Olivier Martinez. Jean Reno was born in morocco, (Africa), and his fathers were from andalucia, (the souther, the same of Antonio Banderas), wich maybe the "less blond" region of Spain). In fact, there are some entire regions in french were you can't found non blond people.

So, here I'll put some links to photos of groups of spanish people of my village. You also can observe real spanish people that appear in films filmed in spain, (like "face of terrorism"), or search in the net for other images. But have into account that in english the word spanish sometimes is refered to all hispanic-american people and that spain also have a great inmigrant population. And that most inmigrants are from africa and latin-america.

The rugby team of my old university: http://www.geocities.com/cjruz2005/Rioja10.jpg

The public (free) school of one of my nephews:

http://centros2.pntic.mec.es/cp.navarrete.el.mudo/actualidad2.htm
http://centros2.pntic.mec.es/cp.navarrete.el.mudo/actualidad1.htm
...It is a free school, so, as you can observe, there are a lot of inmigrant students, most of then with latin american origin.

News about my village fiestas:

http://www.lanoticia.es/ediciones/2004/ln280/cascoantiguo.htm

Well, we arent the most blond europeans, but you have to admit that there is a diference between the americans' thought about our appearance and the truth.


Ignacio said: "Regarding education levels in high school, I can say with certainty that the education level of a high school graduate in Spain is much higher than a high school graduate in the US. In fact, Americans studying in Spain during high school are not tested with the same exams as everybody else, but an easier version."

I can confirm this, at least in the case of the technological careers, like engineering. I had some classmates that went to USA universities to make one term of their studies, and they always obtained the best marks while here they were not good students. That's not because spanish are better than others but because in spain there is more people who want to study in an University than in USA. One of my classmates did also the end of degree proyect in the research center of one university of USA, and told me that the majority of the researchers were asian. So I think that the key is having best researchers of all of the world researching in your country, (investing in technology), more than producing good researchers. Another example is England who has relatively few people studing in it's universities but it isn't a technologically backward country. There work a lot of researchers, many of then spanish.

Ok, that's all. I apologize for my bad english.

Thank you for your attention,

Carlos said at March 18, 2006 12:36 PM:

And a comment about the article.

That article and the book of Murray have a subjetive point of view. If the writer were for example spanish, I'm sure that there would be more spanish speaking people and less english speaking people, becouse of the different perespectives.

iker said at March 19, 2006 11:32 AM:

Is there any irish in that list of the book of murray? And how much polish are there? And how much hungarians, ucranians, lithuanians...? Any scandinavian before XX century?

And haw much southafricans, sudanian, kenian, zambian, nigerian... ? (All of them english speaking countries.)

It's very easy to draw false conclusions from isolated and subjetive information. It's the most used way to do demagogy.

Iker, from Spain.

Cherry Nicholls said at March 27, 2006 2:03 PM:

The whole discution is stupid. Many Americans dont now the contributions of Latin Americans because they dont care. And you dont know what you dont care. For example, Do you all know that Botero (a Colombian artist) is the first non-french artist that could show his work in Montecarlo and Champ-Elise and more importat is that he is the only artist until know that presented his paintings and sculptures in Plaza de la Señoria in Florence Italy. Besides (now that you include people from Spain as latin also), Dont you know that Salvador Dali and Piccaso are both from Spain? Do you know how many Latins work for NASA as cientist or engineers?

Most of the people that go to the United States are the poor people of our countries. They are farmers with no school access and persons with a really hard situation. Have you come to Latin American countries? Its more that what you see or hear in Hollywood or in the News. Have you seen our cities? Do you know that in Panama City in Panama Republic there are under construction two buildings taller than the Empire State?

Here are some pictures of my country, Panama.(If you dont know Panama is in Central America )

http://www.desarrollobahia.com/images/fotos_proyectos/SunsetPanoramiccrop.jpg

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/4016/point35ld.jpg

http://www.desarrollobahia.com/images/fotos_proyectos/ThePoint_miradores.jpg

http://www.paho.org/Images/DPI/100/democracy01.jpg

For example, I am 24 years old, Middle Class, I have travel because of my work to China once, To Sout Korea (3 times), to the United States (onces), to 5 more countries in Latin America. For fun i have travel three times to the USA and two times to Ecuador. I have already bought my own apartment and I will to study my Master Degree in Spain..My parents are not rich, they dont even have a lot of money, we are normal people. Is this picture possible for a the Latin American country that you paint? Or for a Latin American person?

The only point of this post is to be racist. Why can´t you be happy and enjoy all the diversity of this world? Its so wonderful to see so many cultures. Its so wonderful to talk and exchange ideas with persons of other nationalities, to know them well.

I think its so sad to spend all your life with hate and speaking or writing bad of another people, when life is too short and you must enjoy it!

I know that maybe somebody will quote me and will try to show why i am wrong, and why Latin Americans have no value, why you should hate us or treat us bad. And there are many other pages in the internet that will try to show you why muslims have no value, or why french people have no value, or why people from the united states have no value...I think that at the end is your choice to waste your time with hate or to live your life enjoying diversity.

I choose enjoying life.


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