2003 June 15 Sunday
Rich Lowry: It Is Possible To Stop Illegal Immigration

Rich Lowry reports that in response to an increase in deportations to Muslim countries illegal immigrants are deporting themselves.

But as deportations of Pakistanis, Jordanians, Lebanese and Moroccans have doubled during the past two years, the new signal has begun to register.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that there were 26,000 Pakistani illegals in the United States as of 2000. The Pakistani Embassy now says that more than 15,000 Pakistani illegals have left the country since Sept. 11. Even if the original INS estimate was low, this represents a sizable proportion of the illegal Pakistani community engaging in do-it-yourself deportation.

Lowry quotes Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies arguing that this change in the behavior of the illegals is analogous to the Broken Windows theory of policing first proposed by James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Enforce the laws more vigorously and people will get the hint and show greater respect for the law. This illustrates one reason why the United States should seriously crack down on illegal immigration: it is illegal. The toleration of widespread law-breaking inevitably leads to more kinds of law-breaking that are even more harmful. The United States could end the chaos and lawlessness on the US-Mexico border by building a fence for about $3.4 billion dollars. The US government could also make a concerted effort to deport a lot more illegal aliens. This would encourage many to leave voluntarily and would also discourage many from even trying to come in the first place.

When you read arguments from Mexico about why the United States should open its border keep in mind the Mexican double standard on border control.

Mexico has instituted two different border policies — one for its southern border and another for its northern border. In the south, the government’s Plan Sur has militarized the border and toughened deportation. The reason, says the head of Mexico’s immigration service, Felipe de Jesus Preciado, is because Central Americans crossing illegally into Mexico are “a security problem.” They use the same routes and trails as smugglers, he says, and they also cause difficulties for Mexican border towns. “It would not be a big problem,” he said, “if they were getting through to the United States, but they get stuck and they hang around the frontier cities making trouble, sleeping in the streets with no money.” In response to such observations, Blanca Villasenor, of the Mexican-based human rights organization Sin Fronteras, disapprovingly observes, “In the south the Mexicans are repeating the same discourse as the United States” (The Washington Times, 8/13/2001). Another reason Mexico controls its southern border is to limit the number of non-Mexicans making the illegal crossing into the United States in order to preserve Mexican predominance in that lucrative and, potentially, politically beneficial practice of the ruling elite.

Mexico's political and economic problems can not be fixed by letting half the Mexican population move to America. Mexico's elites need to fix their own problems.

Update: Rich Lowry argues that some high-profile deportations of Latin American illegals would discourage others from illegal entering from south of the border.

An amazing story over the last two years is that if you deport a few Pakistani illegals--OK, maybe a few thousand--huge numbers of other Pakistani illegals will leave voluntarily because they get the hint. This theory should be tried in California and Arizona--I'm guessing if 1,000 illegals from Mexico and Latin America were deported tomorrow in a high-profile action it would have a huge effect on the in-flow of more illegals.

Share |      By Randall Parker at 2003 June 15 02:37 AM  Immigration Law Enforcement


Comments
DESSIE GIBSON said at May 4, 2004 4:46 PM:

you are so right if a lot were deported it would give them a hint.maybe that would stop a lot from trying to cross over the border.we went to mexico in 1998 and down in mexico when they would stop and check you they were so mean and hateful to us.from what i seen in mexico they dont need anything from the united states.look to me they had all they need.here in georgia they have taken over the jobs from our states here in rabun county all the factorys are taken over by mexicans.most of them are illeagl.why dont they put a stop to this.what is the americans gonna do when there are no more jobs to be found.because the mexicans has them all.please think of your family with no food, no medicine,noroof over their heads,then what.they need to start deporting them now not tomorrow,today.i pray you will hear my message.how come people are working mexicans without SS NO.the mexicans get to keep all their money they make and us americans cant get a job without one.that is breaking the why shouldnt they have to have a no to.the goverment is crooked.us poor people dont have a chance. thank you

DESSIE GIBSON said at May 4, 2004 4:47 PM:

you are so right if a lot were deported it would give them a hint.maybe that would stop a lot from trying to cross over the border.we went to mexico in 1998 and down in mexico when they would stop and check you they were so mean and hateful to us.from what i seen in mexico they dont need anything from the united states.look to me they had all they need.here in georgia they have taken over the jobs from our states here in rabun county all the factorys are taken over by mexicans.most of them are illeagl.why dont they put a stop to this.what is the americans gonna do when there are no more jobs to be found.because the mexicans has them all.please think of your family with no food, no medicine,noroof over their heads,then what.they need to start deporting them now not tomorrow,today.i pray you will hear my message.how come people are working mexicans without SS NO.the mexicans get to keep all their money they make and us americans cant get a job without one.that is breaking the why shouldnt they have to have a no to.the goverment is crooked.us poor people dont have a chance. thank you

Kim Grayson said at May 26, 2004 5:06 PM:

Today I watched a report on the History Channel about Border Patrols. Over the past 100 years we have been fighting to give our country boundries. A country without boundries is not a country! In the past we have done many things to send the illegal immigrants running back to their countries. In my opinion, we need to have a severe punishment for those coming into the country illegally. In reality, they are criminals!! There are legal means to enter into our country and if they refuse to do so...they need to suffer severe consequences!! In a time when our country is in danger of terrorist attacks we need to protect our families by putting a stop to this immigration problem once and for all!!! We need the police to protect us. Arrest illegal immigrants and put them in jail!! They are criminals, hence the word ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! What would the foreign governments do to our sons if they were in their countries illegally??? Stop being pansies and put your foot down America!!!!
SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What kind of future are you handing down to your children??
A surrounding where they have to put up with piers with little moral values??? Surrounded by
co-workers, neighbors and piers with very little respect, manners or dignity??
Think about it!!

Raul said at October 13, 2004 5:12 PM:

Go ahead and deport thousands of them and suffer when the harvest of labor intese crops come around.

Randall Parker said at October 15, 2004 12:28 AM:

Raul, The market will adjust. More capital will be employed. The wages for field workers will rise.

Mariana said at November 9, 2004 5:53 AM:

LOW MORAL VALUES!?!?!?!?! Excuse me Mrs. Grayson, but I certanly dont think you have the right to call people that. What gives you the right to judge immigrants just like that?!?!?!?!? Have you ever put yourself in an immigrants situation? Imagine having to raise you're children with a $100 salary every 2 weeks. If you knew you had an opportunity to give your children a better life, to a higher education, in a better country, would you seize the opportunity? Would you deprive your children the chance to expand and grow (in all aspects)? I dont think so. By the way you referre to them, you seem to think of the as animals or cattle. "Put a $300 milli0on fence up, that'll keep 'em rounded up!", that is not the answer! America is the land of dreams and hopes, and no one should be denied the chance to make theirs a reality. Besides im sure that at one point you had family that came from somewhere else, who traveld the sea to give YOU and your family a better chance at life, and now what gives you the right to want to take this away from mexicans, latin-americans, etc.???? Next time you think of saying something or lashing out to immigrants, first find out about your decends and about your neighbors, since at this very moment you might live next door to "low moral, nodignaty, immigrants", and appereantly we can see how much you hate them.

Legal Immigrants said at December 31, 2004 4:55 AM:

There needs to be more local citizen activism and systems in place to report illegal immigration to the authorities. Mariana's comment is designed to obstruct the fact that she supports criminals entering this country. Yes criminals do have families. Why does Mariana care about helping law-breakers? The fact is illegal immigrants are criminals and it would not be sane in anyway to allow law-breakers to have their way.

jim said at January 6, 2005 8:05 AM:

The time has come to put a stop to all immigration, not just illegal. But illegal would be a good start. Put the military on the border and build a fence. I would rather ha ve lettuce cost five dollars a head than have all these illegals flooding the country.

Andy Price said at January 12, 2005 1:33 PM:

Mariana: You need to get your facts straight before you lash out in the typical "PC" manner that accuses anyone that has an opinion of being filled with racism and hatred. The point Ms. Grayson was trying to make was about ILLEGAL immigrants...not legal immigrants; there is a difference, you know. Unfortunately, people like you think that everyone should be given our freedom and rights. Well, you are absolutely WRONG. The freedoms and rights we Americans have are those that were paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of our forefathers; many of whom were immigrants, but who came over here LEGALLY. It is NOT a right to be an American, it is a PRIVILEGE and one can only gain respect from his fellow countrymen by becoming a citizen through legal channels. Is it fair that the million and a half prospective immigrants wait patiently for legal immigration, while over a million cross the US/Mexican border illegally every year? It is a statistical fact that illegal immigration weakens our sovereignty as a nation, when illegals refuse to learn English, fail to pay taxes and remain most loyal to their home countries. Illegal immigrants are often, but not always, poor and uneducated and place a burden on our social services when their children are naturalized by just being born in the US (which is a very STUPID and DATED law) and qualify immediately for food stamps, medicaid, etc. Should we reward illegal activity (CRIME) with benefits and rights without a price? Can the US take in anyone and everyone who wants to come to our country? The answer is NO and 86% of Americans are damn tired of it. We want and demand something be done about it and the rest of you uninformed idiots shut your crying mouths and stay out of the way.

Angie said at February 22, 2005 10:02 AM:

what many do not understand is that we are now raising a younger group of kids that know that many of their peer's are not legal and breaking the law. The illegal's from what ever country are law-breakers. When our fore-fathers came here we didn't change the way banks, businesses, school's and communities do now. We sure didn't have Irish, polish, german etc. as a second language.

Ronny Bruce said at February 24, 2005 12:08 PM:

One day I was driving down Buford Hwy (around Atlanta), and I noticed obvious illegal alians all over the place. So, I called the local police department and tried to report them. I suggested, "Should I try to hold a couple of them until you get here." The Policeman asked me, "What are they doing wrong?", and I replied, "Them being here is wrong." Then, the Policeman told me that I needed to call INS; ofcourse I called INS, and they do nothing. I then called the Police back and the same person answered and I asked him: "If I knew someone was selling drugs in my neighborhood - would I call the DEA or the local police?" The Policeman replied, "You would call us - the local police." Then, I said, "Why did you tell me to call a federal agency to solve a local problem?" The Policeman replied, "I know what you are trying to do and we cannot do anything." THE POLICE HAVE NO POWER TO ENFORCE THE LAW. The local police is our first line of defense when it comes to protecting citizens and enforcing what is supposed to be a law. Folks we cannot do anything about this problem. I called the govenors office and asked his representatives how the govenor intends to protect the citizens of Georgia from the illegal aliens comming in. His representative stated that their is no problem; I replied, "A local policeman was killed by an illegal alien, my vehicle was hit and the hispanic man driving the other vehicle ran, what about the twin towers?" I then asked again, "Can the govenor protect us from illegal aliens?" The representative said, "No." Folks, the president will do nothing, and neither will anyone else in government. Can we do anything?

JOYCE said at March 20, 2005 3:29 PM:

LET'S ALL START A PROTEST IN THIS COUNTRY THAT MIGHT GET ATTENTION ABOUT ILLEGALS COMING IN. WE BETTER BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. LET'S ROLL

DIANA said at April 6, 2005 6:22 PM:

I agree with Andy Price. I do not agree with the flow of illegal immigrants. First of all, I am telling you my point of view from an immigrant point of view. I came as an immigrant too in this wonderful country, but I CAME LEGALLY!!! I did not cross the border (it was hard to do it from Europe anyway) and I had my time to wait in line for my paperwork to be processed. While my mother is waiting for the last one year and a half to get her green card paperwork processsed (And guess what the INS process paperwork in the rithm that by the time you get your green card is the time you can apply for citizenship )we have more than half a million mexicans coming in this country every year, they get their children citizens by birth and then they all live nice and beautiful at the expense of us, the legal ones. They don't come here for a better life: they are coming here and they are still poor, still living in the same conditions like they are back home - they have no furniture - they sleep on the floor, they have no clothes - I have two families living next to me - I haven't seen them changing clothes, they are rude, uneducated and impolite, noisy and refuse to learn english. I have the understanding that if you want to live in a country of choice you should learn the language and abide the rules that governs that country - but I guess since they break the rules from the beggining, why should I expect them to abide by the rules and the laws later? How can you be sure that your next door neighbour is not one of the sex offenders back home? How can you feel secure living anymore? But who cares if I have been good and did all by the book, never broke the law? I am still looking helpless how my neigbour is staying home collecting food stamps and get all the government benefits without even lifting a finger! To be a citizen of this country is an EARNED PRIVILEGE, not a right. We need QUALITY background screened immigrants not QUANTITY law breakers with no education!!!! We already have enough poor people, no need for more!!!

Gloria said at April 12, 2005 12:24 PM:

For that "uninformed idiot who can't shut his mouth and needs to stay out of the way"(Andy Price)and Joyce, who feels it is necessary to start a protest to get noticed, I have a few things to say. You bunch of pendejos are the ones who are uninformed. If ONLY illegal immigrants decided to go on strike for one day, ONE FREAKIN'DAY, the whole economy would suffer greatly and all of you would come crying to us to get back to work. And for Jim, would you still prefer to buy a head of lettuce for five dollars after YOUR ASS would be the one having to pick it up from the DAMN field? I don't think so. You all need to get FUCKIN' INFORMED and wake up to reality. How the hell are you going to ban ALL IMMIGRATION? In case you haven't heard FUCKER this is a land of immigrants illegal and legal. This country relies on illegal immigrants because they're the only ones willing to do all the heavy work for the small pay-all the dirty work that your LAZY ASSES aren't willing to do. Whoever else has a coment can just send it my way.

tayana said at April 15, 2005 4:35 PM:

NO!!! i dont think we should deport immgrants because From where would you bring people to work for less money? Do you think that Americans will do it? Work as dishwashers, work in the fields picking up vegetables, cleanning rooms in hotels? All those jobs are done from illegal aliens that are just looking for a better living.

Randall Parker said at April 15, 2005 5:38 PM:

Tayana,

I've worked as a restaurant dishwasher. I've picked blueberries. I've unloaded trucks for UPS and did other manual labor jobs. My ancestors came to America a few hundred years ago.

There are parts of the country the Hispanics have not reached where the hotel maids, dishwashers, trash collectors, and farm workers are all native Americans whose ancestors came here many generations ago.

Illegals get the jobs because they work for less. The illegals are here because employers want cheaper labor. That is all the illegal immigrant wave is about: saving business owners money at the expense of native born workers.

It is an insult to native born workers to tell them they are too lazy to work. It is also a lie.

maria said at May 1, 2005 5:30 PM:

Many of us think that by allowing immigrants into our country, will jeopordize it. But in reality if we analize statistics about immigrants and their contributions; we will notice that there are several. I understand that there are many coming into this country illegal, but not all of them are criminals. I believe that if these are people who are willing to work hard and provide their families with a better life, an oppourtunity should be given to them. "DIANA" if an immigrant is poor in this country, there is no comparison to being poor in their country. This simply means it is a "BETTER POOR" to you this phrase would probably never make sense, because you probably had it all or almost all were you came from. Many say immigrants come here to steal jobs, in reality that is not true. There are many jobs that are out there, if we all wanted to work we would do so. I know several that are without jobs collecting from welfare. These people are not all hispanics or illegal these are people who were born and raised here. Now don't get me wrong!!! I'm just saying that immigration is not the only problem in our country and immigrants do not steal jobs. It is not that they can not find jobs .... they do not want to work because the goverment supports them thru welfare.

nick said at May 12, 2005 6:18 PM:

i think the army shud be put at our southern border to protect us from the flow of illegal aliens. im only in high school but there taking jobs away from americans and more shud be done to collect the illegal immigrants and send them out of the country and i dont think we shud let any1 else in the country legal or illegal!!! i just dont trust any1 anymore and u can call me a racist but face the facts thats the kind of world where living in today. im a big bush fan but i agree he has to do more to protect the borders. just a week ago and illegal immigrant near where i live killed a women. he raped her beat her and then walked out but was caught. the thing i hate is all these fuckin democrats calling republicans racist and all this but where doin it for the best interest of america.

Burley Morris said at June 10, 2005 10:08 AM:

Maria,

You ought to get out before you get run out. A couple things: I lost 63 pounds starving out once; I starved out more than once, but this was the worst( 198 lbs down to 135 lbs)no free lunch, welfare, or food stamps. I walked over 10 miles for coffee,and possibly a doughnut if I could find one, for breakfast, if I had one.
I dug ditches in caliche etc, for $1.05/hour daylight to dark with pick and shovel ( not a mexican on that crew), pulled boles and chopped cotten for meals. You don't know anybody who lived in a dug out either; I'll bet you don't even know what one of those is.
So quit bitchin. If you're here illegally, you are a criminal, no matter your so-called sad story, so go back where you came from.

Frank said at June 26, 2005 8:25 PM:

We must stop this illegal invasion from Mexico. There havee been many documented incidents where the Mexican army has crossed into the Southern United States and FIRED upon our Border Patrol. In any other nation this would be considered an ACT OF WAR!!! The illegal immigrants are not here to work, but instead here to take back what they believe is 'rightfully" theirs, this being California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. They believe that we stole it from them, and they want them back. These militants call this area Aztlan. Please see the following URL. http://www.alpinesurvival.com/immigration.html

We must act soon before there are to many Illegal Immigrants in this nation. It will not belong before they begin to try to take the Western United States from us. We must seal our borders NOW!!! before it is to late. Our pacifist liberal politically correct society has driven America into the ground. We must UNITE to stop this invasion (Whites, Blacks, Asians, Arabs, and the Hispanics who are here legally and believe in the American dream). Our Government has failed to protect its citizens and we now have the responsibility to protect our families, neighborhoods and Country from this invasion. As quoted from the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
President George W. Bush has failed to protect us. Senator's John McCain and Kennedy are selling our souls by granting amnesty. The Democrats with their welfare systems are taking money from Americans and giving it to the Illegal Immigrants. The ACLU is destroying this country. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS AND SHOULD NOT BE GRANTED THE PROTECTION OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.

Declare the area of the United States southern border an area where martial law is in effect. Arrest these immigrants on site and dump them on the other side of the border.

We do not have much time to accomplish this. We must begin to protect ourselves, NOW!!!

Copy and Paste this and send it to everybody who believes in America.

NIcole Smith said at July 8, 2005 5:26 PM:

I moved to southern California three years ago from the northeast coast. There, I was making a decent wage at $20/hour, with benefits, in a medical office. I tried to find the same out here? Well, guess what. You're not hired unless you can speak Spanish (in my opinion, that is discrimination) and they considered $9.00 with no benefits "great pay." The cost of living in southern California is 10x higher than that of the state I left...why is this so? Because of the mexicans. They will work for anything, and there are too many of them. Why is it that housing is out of control in southern California? If you lived next to a mexican, you would know why, They do not respect their neighbors. Their yards are unkept, their children are up all hours of the night playing outside, and they think it is OK to blast amplified music at any time of day at the loudest volume possible, as if to say, we are here, and there is nothing you can do about it. Decent people are not only paying taxes for the public school system, but they are also paying the high cost of private school, since no school that is primarily mexican has good scores. Third graders cannot even spell the word "house." We need to STOP making this country so attractive. If I was in the hospital from a car accident, with no insurance, do you think I would get assistance? How about the same case, with a mexican? We let them walk all over us, as they laugh behind our back, and collect all our jobs, funding, and housing. They don't care about contributing. Many say they are here to give their children better lives. THEN LEARN THE LANGUAGE. So when your children need help with homework, you can help them, and you don't bleed the school system dry. SHOW RESPECT for our way of living, and don't throw your way of living in our faces. I never considered myself biased against a particular race, and not all mexicans are like this. But, unfortunately, the MAJORITY ARE. And I am sick of this country overlooking criminal acts when it comes to people of another country. One day the United States and its system of government will be no more. Mexicans have 4-8 children per family. And we let them become legal. Who do you think will be running this country in a few years? It is too late. The government is too weak and too much of a pushover to change anything until it is too late. Nearly every county in LA is 70-90% mexican. And now we have a mexican mayor. I'm going to stop writing now. I've said my peace, but somehow don't feel any better.

Nicole Smith said at July 8, 2005 5:29 PM:

Oh, I just read GLORIA's comment. Nice language. You have just proven what all of us have been writing. You don't belong here. Go back to where you came from.

Mike said at July 10, 2005 8:46 PM:

Randall, you have hit the nail on the head. Illegal immigration is the most prevelant problem we have today in our nation. It is bigger than the war in Iraq (although I do support fighting terrorists on their soil as opposed to our own).

I hear so many ignorant people throw out the old "our crops are going to be ruined," or "where else are we going to find someone to take out our garbage for pennies." To you people such as Gloria and Tanya who advocate such things, all I can say is "you selfish, self centered, penny pinching, slavemasters." Yes, you heard me right. Is all you can think of is paying someone a dollar an hour to do your dirty laundry? Would you have these people come into this country and be treated as lesser human beings because they didn't take the time to get documented? Do you advocate them coming across the border sealed in cargo holds so hot that they die? Or cross the desert with inadequate water and die along the way? Or get robbed, or turn to prostitution, or selling drugs? Or have people employ them for a day then refuse to pay them and threaten to turn them in to the INS if they squeal? For every penny you selfish people save having someone pick your oranges from a tree, you spend 5 more treating them to medical facilities, schools, bilingual services, and all the other benefits we give these people that they are not legally entitled to. They are taking jobs from citizens of this country who would willingly take for minimum wage. People like my son, a high school graduate that can't seem to find a job yet every time I walk into a restaurant, I can't find a person who speaks english to take my order...then the hispanic cleaning crew comes along to mop the floor. But selfish people like you don't want to pay what any legal resident should earn. Many dollars that should remain in this country are sent off to the coffers of another country because the illegals send many of their dollars back to mexico. You are doing no-one any favors with your selfish and ignorant attitude. Not the citizens of this country and not the citizens of latin America. The markets will adjust themselves. The door will open for more LEGAL immigration if our economy calls for it and these people will be treated better, pay their fair share of the services they receive, and gain a respect for the laws of this country. And our borders will remain better protected. I'll pay ten dollars for a head of lettuce or 5 dollars an Orange for that if that's what it takes. If I can't afford it, I'll grow my own damn lettuce and oranges. I'm not so damn lazy I can't do that.

People like you don't care about anything but yourselves. You graduated from ignorance because you attend the dumbed down schools that we have nowadays because we have had to lower our standards for education to accomodate those who can't speak english. Gotta have that 90% graduation rate, right? You have no respect for the laws that have kept this country safe and one of the greatest nations on earth. To you, 9/11 had no real impact, it was just a bad video because you weren't personally affected. You didn't die, your family didn't die, you don't care how the people that bombed the world trade center got into this country. You're perfectly fine with letting them slip in across the border with anyone else that wants to come here to do your laundry for 50 cents.

I don't know whether to be angry at you people sometimes or just feel sorry for you. You don't have one more ounce of compassion in your body than I do for others. For human life. For human rights. You wanna sit back and take the easy road. The one that doesn't require you to spend a penny or get out of your chair to actually help another human being. Have you donated a penny to the poor? Have you mowed the lawn of an elderly person? Would you drive down to mexico and donate that old car you own to a family that needs it? Hell no. You've already got all the answers.

What have I given to this country? Donations to the poor. I treat every person on the street with respect whether they are here legally or illegally. I smile at them and hold the door open for them and say hello to them. I gave up a year with my father while he served in Vietnam. I mow the lawn of my brother's widow that was killed in Iraq . I care for his kids and teach them the values that he held close to his heart. His wife is an immigrant. A LEGAL immigrant. And I love her as much as I love my own wife. Wake up. You're not helping these people. You're hurting them. You're hurting yourself and everyone else in this country. Some day, the bomb will be in your neighborhood. Or hurt a member of your family. Then you won't take such a cavalier attitude. I support the effort in Iraq because I support the soldiers there. But better my brother had died on American soil securing the borders of this country. And I'm totally ashamed of the politicians in this country who send our kids, our family members off to war, but don't have the courage or the balls to defend our own borders because of their own political agendas and thirst for power.

Mike

Rd Thornton said at July 13, 2005 4:42 PM:

Today i was talking with a friend who works in the construction business. I was told that some of the workers who come to the job sites are mexicans, and one in particular is here illegally. This "illegal", is quite proud of the fact that he has been able to evade border guards in the past. He boldly told of a time when he was crossing a river into America, and a U.S. Border agent motioned for him to "come to him." The illegal's response? "No thanks,i'll try again tomorrow." This "illegal" also tells of a time when he was being chased by agents, and broke into an American woman's home. He told her to "keep quiet,or i'll kill you." IT IS PAST TIME FOR THESE PEOPLE TO GO!!

Mordechai said at August 20, 2005 8:18 AM:

Mr. Thornton, fantastic post! You must have extensive experience arguing your points of view in writing. Are you a print journalist, attorney or long-term academic? I mean to say, you do a wondeful job of introducing your opinion and then defending it with a vast amount of relevant information. So persuasive you are, Mr. Thornton!

One anecdote that may or may not be true is not contributing to the debate. And I do not mean to pick on you, Mr. Thornton, I'm simply using your post as an example of arguments that do more to kill the debate than to enrichen it. Please, in the future think about what you want to say and defend yourself. That way, rather than turn us off with your simple-minded and failed arguments, maybe you will persuade those of us on the other side of the debate. I sincerely hope that was your goal [If not, please refrain from posting].

Chris said at August 22, 2005 8:56 PM:

The problem of illegals is way out of control. I have a friend that hired a illegal. His social nuber did not work so he turned him down for the job. The next day he was back with one that did. He is claiming max dependants so he pays no taxes. He has no drver lisence and drives a 99 Licoln navigator. He can afford that since he does not have to pay taxes like the rest of us. Not to say who that social number realy belongs to might have a problem with the irs next year, hope its not yours. The goverment tied his hands on the verifiying of the number with out profiling. Now what about your children? My son attends first grade and all but three kids in his calss are mexican. That means that my son and two others speak english, while the school has to slow thier education down to teach english to the spanish speaking is a problem, but what about when they graduate? My son is going to speak english while these kids of illegals are bilangual and will get the high paying jobs our kids are going to suffer. If we don't do it for our country, We should do it for our kids, ITS AMERICA and Americans should come first here, our children first.
ps. I love my country and if ever in the history of this wonderful country was there ever was a time that a president needed impeachment, that time is now.

N/A said at September 30, 2005 11:22 PM:

I know about 10 mexicans that I want sent back mexico. How do I do this?

HEATHER said at November 24, 2005 7:59 PM:

I WAS ONCE MARRIED TO A MEXICAN WHO CAME HERE ILLEGALLY, I TRYED TO HELP HIM GET HIS GREEN CARD, AND BECOME A US CITIZEN , DURING THIS TIME WE HAD A LITTLE BOY, AND THEN HE HAD AN AFFAIR , AND NOW HAS ANOTHER CHILD WITH SOMEONE ELSE, HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE PAYING CHILD SUPPORT , BUT HE DOESN'T AND I HAVE TO PRACTICALLY BEG HIM TO COME TO HIS CHILD, THAT IS SORRY , AND HE DOESN'T BELONG HERE, I HAD EVERYTHING CANCELED SO THAT HE WOULD NOT GET HIS GREEN CARD, SO HE IS STILL ILLEGAL AND IS NOT EVEN TRYING TO GET A JOB , AND HELP ME FINIANCIALLY, OR EVEN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS CHILD, HE NEEDS TO RETURN TO MEXICO.

Anna said at November 30, 2005 4:09 PM:

First of all I am very dissapointed that some of you are so ignorant as to this subject. I am not going to give you any facts because obviously you are stupid, and are blinded by your racism. I would just like to ask a couple of questions, Does an illegal immigrant hurt you in any way? Oh and Heather just to let you know white people leave their children too, this is not a race thing. For some of you who think that it is easy to get documented, you are wrong. I just don't understand how these people working a job which you could not care for affects you guys. Let me tell you something the U.S. is very capable of physically closing its borders, but you know what, It is never going to happen. think about it, The economy would not survive, so the government would rather turn their heads and pretend they are doing something, obviously it is convinient to have illegals here. I guess its not that big of a problem HuH. You know what upsets me the most, some of you natives, oh my bad immigrants as well from long ago cannot even spell aliens, I saw it spelled alians in a posting, and you should really be ashamed that you cannot spell your native language, yet here you are talking nonsense because you are ignorant and misinformed. Just something to get you thinking on why there are still immigrants.

Cire Gastav said at January 18, 2006 4:13 PM:

Last year, Phoenix, Arizona suffered 57,600 cars stolen by illegal aliens (500,000 illegals in that state) for use in drug smuggling and alien trafficking. If that many cars were stolen daily out of the U.S. Congressional parking lots, we’d see troops on the border within days.

This year, over two million illegal aliens dropped 16 million pounds of trash (eight pounds per illegal alien according to Time Magazine) in the Arizona desert. Additionally, they left millions of piles of human defecation in the desert along with plastic, clothes, backpacks and used food cans. They cut fences, killed cattle and broke into ranchers’ houses all along the border. If they had crossed over Bush’s Crawford, Texas ranch with the same damage and trash, our president would have taken immediate action to stop the invasion.

Last summer in Boulder, Colorado, eight American daughters suffered rapes by eight illegal alien Mexicans who fled back to Mexico. All those women were somebody’s daughters and under the age of twenty-two. If Bush’s daughters, Jenna and Barbara, suffered gang rape like the Boulder women, Mrs. Laura Bush would force Mr. Bush to take action. Instead, he and his daughters read about it in the safety of their gated homes and bodyguards.

Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi of California, who, after neglecting her job serving American citizens by not closing the borders, wants to give illegal aliens driver’s licenses. Never mind they are federal criminals and there are 15 million of them and 19 of them with driver’s licenses--piloted jetliners into the World Trade Centers. Never mind that the CIA and FBI warned against such action. If Nancy Pelosi was the mother of the Colorado University quarterback John Hessler, who was smashed--head-on--in the middle of the night by illegal aliens in a stolen car, she would be nursing her son. Hessler suffered severe brain damage and sits daily in a wheelchair trying to regain his life—but cannot. If it had happened to her family like it did to the Hessler family, Nancy Pelosi would put troops on the borders and begin deportations.

In Los Angeles with over one million illegal aliens, thousands of drivers roll around the city with little signs that read, "F**K YOU, THIS IS MEXICO." If thousands of illegal aliens without driver’s licenses rolled around Washington, DC daily with those little flashing L.E.D. signs in their back windows, the Beltway Boys would get a different perspective of the glories of "multiculturalism" and "diversity" they shove down our throats by allowing these unlawful foreigners in our country against our laws.

Each year, $120 billion in drugs crosses the Mexican borders into America. Those drugs addict and enslave millions of our kids. They become the reason for murders, prostitution, addiction and family chaos. They are the reason for the useless 30-year long and $80 billion spent annually for the "War on Drugs." If those drug lords addicted Senator Bill Frist’s or Representative Hastert’s children, the top senator and congressman would close down the borders.

Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis "A" in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society.

Donna said at January 18, 2006 4:16 PM:

The last statistics I read from the Mexican government on the number of Mexican citizens living in the U.S. showed 25 million Mexicans living here (in 2002). Of course, children born to Mexican citizens are, under Mexican law, Mexican citizens regardless where they are born. So several million of these Mexicans are were born in the U.S. However, it still means a fifth of Mexico's citizens live in the U.S. And the vast majority violated U.S. laws to enter and remain, although we have "legalized" about half so far.

Now the Pew Hispanic Center tells us its surveys show almost half of Mexico's population -- another 50 million people -- intend to immigrate to the U.S. Over one-fifth readily admit to pollsters they will enter illegally.

It's not just the "poor" or "uneducated." Across income and educational levels, half of Mexicans aim for the border. It's not just jobs, stupid!

If Presidente Vicente Fox spent as much time and effort making Mexico a better place to live as he has lobbying for more benefits for Mexican lawbreakers in the U.S., it might not be this bad. Mexico is corrupt from top to bottom, birth rates consistently exceed job growth, economic growth, or any other form of growth. The country has become dependent on remittances from Mexicans in the U.S. and the fruits of crime: smuggling humans, smuggling drugs, smuggling guns, fencing goods stolen from the U.S. One of the world's largest oil exporters makes more money from crime than oil sales at a time when oil prices are skyrocketing.

The U.S. cannot afford another 50 million Mexicans. It cannot afford another 50 million illegal aliens from any country. It cannot afford another 50 million legal immigrants from anywhere, either. Large swaths of our country are short of water, short of housing, short of classrooms, short of teachers willing to deal with the problems massive immigration imposes on schools, short of money to continue subsidizing a population that continually produces more mouths to feed than wherewithal to feed them.

Above all, if Mexicans are not willing to do anything to better their own country, why should allow them to come here and corrupt ours? These are not people who will contribute to making America better.

jared - a real american said at March 24, 2006 1:33 PM:

I am extremely concerned about illegal immigration. these people feel that it is thier right to invade our country and take our jobs. I feel that americans need to organize and voice our concerns to protect our country. we have all seen what mexicans do to a country when they are left on thier own, they destroy it just like mexico. these people are like parasites, they suck all they can out of this country and send it back to thiers. just like a tick sucks your blood to lay its own eggs, mexicans and other illegals suck our blood dry and then take that money out of the community. they are not here to better the community, just themselves! they are like strip miners, or rainforest lumberjacks, total slash and burn.

we need to reclaim our country!!!!


if this illegal immigration continues unchecked, the US will end up just like the filthy 3rd world countries these horrible parasites come from!!!!

Uncle Sam said at March 25, 2006 10:45 AM:

I live in Chicago, and at Fullerton and California intersection, there have been mexicans there for as long as I can remember selling fake Drivers licenses(Illinois or California), Social Security cards, and State IDs. I have worked with illegal mexicans who can purchase cars, insurance, houses. Everything they do is "under the table" and ILLEGAL. These people do not want to assimilate into American culture but would rather "mexicanize America." Not only is it mexicans crossing over but the great people from honduras, guatemala, el salvador etc are also. Ever heard of that cute little machete wielding gang MS-13? The American citizens are the ones that have to pay for these crimes done by the mexicans. The mexican government allows the border crossing because these mexicans always send money back home. The United States Goverment needs to deport some mexicans and lock the borders down because this is getting worse. The American people need to get together and make sure these mexicans dont invade our Country.

jabo said at April 5, 2006 4:58 AM:

I was born an american and I am proud of it !! My father served under adolf hitler ,went in the war at age 17 and got out at age 20, came to america in 1951 at age 24 and became a legal in 1958. My wife is from the philippines and she has gone through hell to become a legal citizen. We have paid lots of money to get this done, so dont tell me or my wife or my dad to get our mother fucking facts straight. we went through the hell and now how do you think this makes all those who have done this the legal way ,feel. well Ill just say it for you ,{PISSED} you uninformed idiot gloria!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you illegal!!!!!!!!!!!ya you.

Tonia said at April 6, 2006 7:53 AM:

I would like to inform all of you people that problay never knew or had to experience what it is like to be poor, that it actually does exist and illegal immigrants have to deal with this. You guys probaly had everything given to you. Well not everyone has everything given to them. So you try to go through the things that these people have to go through and see what it is like. You can't blame these people, you should be trying to use your voice with the government to give these people a more comfortable way of living so that it will not be a issue on them living here. American is made up of immigrants. All of you stupid ass bitches do know what you are talking about and should think about if it was you

Tonia said at April 6, 2006 7:54 AM:

I would like to inform all of you people that problay never knew or had to experience what it is like to be poor, that it actually does exist and illegal immigrants have to deal with this. You guys probaly had everything given to you. Well not everyone has everything given to them. So you try to go through the things that these people have to go through and see what it is like. You can't blame these people, you should be trying to use your voice with the government to give these people a more comfortable way of living so that it will not be a issue on them living here. American is made up of immigrants. All of you ************* do know what you are talking about and should think about if it was you

Phil said at April 6, 2006 9:37 AM:

Congress is enacting a new program to reward illegal immigrants by giving them US citizenship. Congress, who does not have to uphold the Constitution and is not adversely effected by Government overspending and Government giveaways for medical/dental/legal expenses of illegal immigrants (for instance), has decided that it is ok for illegal immigrants to break the law and is more than willing to reward them for their crime(s). And as the previous poster noted, breaking the law is ok if you are poor - and I suppose it should be the exception. The real US citizen will be overtaken with a tax burden that does not effect the ones making the decision. Isn't that nice...
So, I suppose, if you want what someone else has, just take it. And, claim that you are doing the right thing because the person you stole from probably had it given to them anyway. Yeah, that sounds right. And if someone steals from you or you have to support them through your taxes (from which they are exempt), just keep your mouth shut you bigoted hate-monger! Just keep paying your taxes and never you mind to whom your taxes are distributed. It's none of your business!

Jenni said at May 1, 2006 2:46 PM:

Now that we have had that ONE DAY where the illegals would not go to work is anyone ready to hand the keys to America over to the illegals??/ I sure as hell won't do it, Gloria! This country was formed by immigrants, yes, but does not need illegals. I have gone out job hunting as have my two young sons and not been successful due to the hiring of illegals. I resent the hell out of it. I work hard and I am an honest person who does not skip out or misuse my job or steal from owners....I am a good employee and I taught that same value to my children. I pay my taxes faithfully and I also vote.

My coutry is letting me down every time another illegal gets into the country illegally. Illegal means against the law the last time I checked. How is it I have to pay $125 for speeding when an alien resident will simply lie about address, show fake proof of insurance, and then never pay...and GET AWAY WITH IT!!!

Build a fence, send them back..whatever it takes! This is not just about Mexico and the US, this is about ANY person who chooses to come here illegally!

So Mexico, by the way, why is it you find it necessary to militarize your own southern border while you push your lonely rejects across our borders? What hypocrisy!

Lock 'em and LOAD 'EM UP to get OUT!!!
No more rights to babies born of illegals here in the US!
Punish people who hire illegals...make hiring citizens more desirable!!

Mandy Slaughter said at May 2, 2006 9:05 AM:

My great grandfather crossed the border from mexico into the UNITED STATES back in the early 1900's. It took him 10 years to save his 2 cents in order to come here legally. He hated illegal immigrants and called them wetbacks. We were never taught spanish becasue he was AMERICAN. For all of his 84 years he believed if they came here from mexico then they should do so legally. I believe the older mexican immigrants who came to our country all felt that way. AMERICA is a GREAT NATION but it is our NATION it does not belong the immigrants of the world but to us!! It is time to close our borders and take a few pages from other countries. We may let you be a GUEST but if you come you will learn our ways, our language, SHOW RESPECT FOR OUR FLAG and for OUR CONSTITUTION or you can get the HELL OUT!! I will gladly contribut to a fund for tickets to ship them out of OUR COUNTRY! Tell me where I can sign up to so I can put my words into actions. AMNESTY FOR NOT AN OPTION THEY NEED TO GO BACK WHERE THEY CAME FROM LETS HELP THE ILLEGALS DO THAT!

Angela Martinez said at September 10, 2006 11:51 PM:

U.S. natives say this is there country and the illegal immigrants are taking jobs and killing and need to get out or pushed out. Okay everyone has there right to their opinion but if you was in a situation for life or death what would you choose? Say that you are a single parent and your only son has a tumor on his brain and surgery is what will possibly save him. Remember now you are the immigrant so you can forget about the government help and all the great insurance US has. You have no money. Poor child is left in your hands. Would you rob a bank? Kill? Well for my child I will do the impossible but not the unforgivable in Gods eyes. Would you leave your sick child and walk the valley of death. There you can see your friends dead because of the heat or the travel, . You have to keep moving to find that impossible. Going to the extreme to find the cash to save your only child. Illegal or not a human is a human in gods eyes. What would you do to see things a different way? To save someones life? Would you give them money for work? Labor work .... shovel, carrying huge rocks, standing in all the weather, being called names you wont forget, treated worse than any US native would tolerate. But you the immigrant are so thankful and blessed to have this chance to get this hard earned money, this boss or co-worker is in your eyes is heaven sent.
Few illegal immigrants want to stay and not all of them are here to over populate or take your jobs. Returning home to some of them is a huge relieve after tolerating this type of extreme journey. I have never put a color on any one or said breaking the law was OK. But maybe the other countries should put walls up keeping the US out. I look at the United States and I cant help but question "is this the place I am from"? US native using Mexicans for their need and turning their backs on them, for example the great depression. Who do you think put US back up from the starving, dieing, and in need for everything? Your famous illegal immigrants of course. How many Mexican terrorist do you know of. Mexicans are not honestly opening the doors for terrorist. You the US natives are. You make the wrong people mad. Who will help you in your time of need? We make friends but here its always I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine FIRST! I love my country but it is scary to know how much blood is on our hands. The US will always have KKK and Nazi supporters and this push them out or else is like a secret KKK. One day this nation will fall and I'll be running for the border. I know Mexicans are great, hard working human beings and I have more respect for them than any US native because you would not survive their lifestyle of hard work. US natives are spoiled and wimpy and I don't feel sorry for any of you. VIVA MEXICO

Christiana said at September 12, 2006 1:30 PM:

I am a student in Arizona were we have a big problem on immagration... and the goverment dosent do anything it pisses me of all my family was born in america we all speack english.. This is a land that is founded on english.. and i think they have no right to come here and tell everyone that we should learn there language it makes me so mad they have no rights.. and my school gos and makes other papers for them in spanish.. what the HELL .. if i went to mexico or any other country they would not do that for me cuz its there COUNTRY.. I think if they want to be an AMERICAN THEY SHOULD LIVE THE AMERICAN WAYS.. learn english become a citizan and PAY TAXES like the rest of us... When i was younger and my family was going through alot at the time and my mom didnt have enough money for food she went to go get food stamps and they wouldnt let her cuz they said we mad to much. But at the sametime there was this mexican immagrent and they gave her food stamps over an AMERICAN this is not right it made me so mad when she told me it broke my heart.. ITs like were i live its a minature mexico they trash the south over where i live and wave the mexico flag around now explain that to me why r they waving the mexico flag around if they are so pround of it why dont they go back no one is making them stay here.. They are taking are jobs and sucking of the GOVERMENT.. Why dosent the goverment do anything about this????.. they should build the GREAT WALL OF AMERICA ACROSS THE BORDER so we dont have these problems.. if the goverment cares about its MONEY.. WHY DONT BUSH DO SOMTHING we are suffering over here.. i have this story that will make u laugh me and my sister went in this store and we knew they didnt take cash back so we were looking around for an exchange of somthing so my sis got socks and i went and got candy so we r in line and the lady DIDNT SPEAK ENGLISH you can tell she was an illegal immigrant.. so we bought are stuff then we saw are other sister come in the store so we told her to hurry up cuz we r almost done so she gave us what she wanted then we told the lady can you put this on the card and she said NO CASH BACK what the hell ok we didnt ask for cash back me sister told her and then agian NO CASH back ....you dont even no how pissed i was cuz this is america and we speak english here.. so then the lady called the manager and the manager said we dont give cash back and my sis said we never ask that and the lady said so what is the problem and my sis said idk what it is all i wanted to do was put somthin on the card.. OMG that made me so mad how can u hire someone that dosent spaek english i yelled and said theres free english class yo can take.. They treat my family like crap when we go in places over here and dog us and treat us like we dont belong here.. we need serious help down in SOUTH TUCSON please spred the word... and put a stop to this no american should have to live like this... make this a nation based on ENIGLSH....and make are boreder more protected. i know im just a kid but i dont want to live like this

keith juarez said at November 20, 2006 5:25 PM:

people, people why all the debate? we only want a few things. let me explain as I have on other pages: Because Americans want to be politically correct, we want to exploit that to the fullest. our country encourages us to go to america and we do and send remittences home. The American government does not want to seem harsh or imhumane so they let us get away with it with impunity. We Understand that the larger the numbers, the harder it is to deport us.

now here is the sweet part, once there are enough of us in a geographical area, we form culture enclaves where spanish is the only language spoken! think about it, these areas are supported by LEGAL American TAXPAYERS but we open businesses, use the hospitals, etc.

Did you know that our illegal numbers are counted in the census? that means that congressional districting is done with us in mind!!!! increasing the chances we will get someone in cogress who will advocate our position!!!!

Right now about 20% of mexicos current population lives in America and the mexican government conseiders us it's assets. it is waiting for the day that a mixcan majority in the southwest legislates that sovergnty over to the mexican government. it will happen, and americans will do nothing about it.

Americans think that we want the American Dream...HA! can you say Aztlan? do you see usn intergrating into your society? you see us intergrating into your prisons, demanding special treatment such as drivers licenses, health care, welfare, and protection for our ANCHOR BABIES!

While we appeal to your emotion with our somewhat well spoken hispanic organizations, we are in private congratulating ourselves on the preogress of hispanics displacing legal immigrants and the impotence of the american people. They are too dumb to realize that WE ARE USING THEIR SYSTEM AGAINST THEM!!!!!!

THEY WILL GIVE US AMNESTY IN 2007 AND GUESS WHAT? WE WILL KEEP COMING UNTIL AMERICA IS BI-LINGUAL, SPANISH, MEXICO'S NORTHEN SUBURB. AND THEN IT IS ON TO CANADA.

Ley said at April 1, 2008 8:40 AM:

Illegal Immigration is certainly a problem in the U.S. today. As a college student I am doing a research paper on illegal immigrants crossing the U.S. border from Mexico. According to the countless research I have done, border patrols and the massive wall is not working. What needs to be done is to find the root of the problem of why Mexicans want to leave, everyone knows for a better opportunity. So why don't we help in doing so? we could help the Mexican government create better oppotunities for them, as well creating a better system of education for the adolescents. If we do not help our neighbors, we could be facing a serious consequence, including higher taxes for our ever expanding population as well as many other negative consequences. The second problem is environmental problems such as land, air and traffic congestion.

anonymous said at October 22, 2009 7:18 PM:

Let's start from the top. When God created the world. Did he made boundaries from the start? NO!!! He gave us a world for all of us to live. We created boundaries because we are selfish people and are too dam greedy. I know many people here don't believe in God. Either because they believe we come from the monkey or I don't know what else. Others, they call themselves Christians but they have no clue what is like to be a Christian. If they were true Christians you will seek for equality. All of you commented against illegal immigrants. Here is my answer to you. You talk because you don't know what is like to be one. You guys think you are mind open, but you guys are not. You guys are hard headed full of hatred, and that's why you can't see beyond your racism. That is what it is, RACISM. People who came here legally well good for you. Not everyone has the opportunity to do so. If it was so easy like you think, wouldn't you think everyone else would do it? There's a lot of requirements that need to be met to apply for anything, but you people wouldn't know. Poor people don't have a chance to meet the requirements. Now are you going to blame people for been poor? For been born poor? Now there is a lot of kids who are here illegally. Are they criminals too? Would you blame someone for wanting something better for their family? If things were great in their country. Do you really think they would leave? No way. You guys talk because you don't know what is like to leave everything behind to have a better life. That includes the family. What makes me mad is for all those people that are Mexican race somehow and still manage to be racist. RACIST to YOUR OWN PEOPLE. You can call yourself American. I really don't care, but just because you deny who you are, you can't stop been who you are. To those people, grab a mirror and take a good look at yourself. Illegals get all the unwanted jobs, so true, just like you bunch of folks don't want those jobs anyway. Too tough to do? right? Not all people are criminals, and if you haven't figure out. There is a bunch of Hispanic people accomplishing careers. Why is that so? because there is a lot of us who do want to better ourselves, and the country. Illegal people never ask for any kind of help from the government. Everything comes out from their pockets regardless of the pitiful salary. In case you don't know. There's a lot of people who do pay taxes, but in comparison to you. They don't get all their taxes returned. The government keeps all that money. Guess where the money goes? The money goes to feed all of you, lazy people. Who just ask for unemployment or other type of help. You talk crap about Mexican's but I tell you one thing for sure. You don't see many of my kind homeless and asking for money on the streets. We do whatever it takes to survive. Sale food, sale whatever.. to make it. While you guys just rely on unemployment. lol. We are hard working people. If you feel like we don't try to be better. Maybe is because you guys haven't really given us a chance to. Other wise we would show you how we Mexicans roll.

Bob Badour said at October 23, 2009 6:58 AM:

Okay, let's start from the top: God is a figment of your imagination. Animals have marked and defended territories from external incursion for at least hundreds of millions of years.

Anonymous said at November 2, 2009 5:35 PM:

Imagination? Nope, I don't think so. I take you're a non believer. I respect people's way of thinking. I just don't understand people. Obviously this world and their people have to come from somewhere. Science can't even explain that. I don't care about cells and all of that. That doesn't count. Those cells didn't appear out of the blue. If people were smart they will play safe. How about if there is an after life?

I agree about the animal thing too, but we aren't animals. We have a brain to think and a mouth to talk. That is what makes us different. If we cannot use that,then God help us.

Bob Badour said at November 2, 2009 6:21 PM:

I am a believer. I believe there is no god. I am a lifelong devout atheist.

From what you write above, you don't care about empirical evidence or reality because reality doesn't count. So, fine, be a solipsist.

We are animals. We are also primates and mammals. That's what we are to the very core of our beings because that's what we are genetically. My dogs have brains to think and mouths to talk. Their mouths are not well adapted to human speech, and mine is not well adapted to canine speech. What inconsequential differences we have make us essentially the same.


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